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Robin Bugbee Agreed. It shouldn't have taken 30 days. But my OPINION or your opinion about a "PARANOID person who sees threats where there are none"is of abolutely no concern and relevance here. The point is we don't know what his motivation was and we certainly do not know if Zimmerman is "paranoid". It's possible he's just a racist asshole but we don't know that either. It should not have taken this long to determine the facts here and, if justified by those facts, to bring Mr. Zimmerman to justice. But you seem to be looking more for your pound of flesh based on hearsay for the most part. It's only a short distance from where you are to a mob with torches stringing a black mad up on a oak tree. Think about that.
Robin Bugbee Amy- you are sincere but misguided. I do not need to be convinced that our society is not fair and that people of color have and continue to suffer from our history of racial intolerance and persecution. No thinking person needs to be convinced of this. My point is that anecdotal evidence is nothing but that: anecdotal. It does not form the basis for making claims that someone is guilty in a specific instance. Mr. Zimmerman may be guilty of the worst things we can imagine but even he, like you, is entitled to the presumtion of innocence until he is proven guilty. Convicting him on annecdotal evidence is not only unnecessary it is grossly unfair to us all no matter what color we are. Please stop attempting to poison the water and then encourage us all to drink it.
Robin Bugbee What in God's name is your point? That people of color are treated unfairly and jailed far more often that white people? Hooray: what a conclusion. It certainly is no surprise to most of us and though it needs to be changed without question, it is No justification for the tendency to reach conclusions regarding guilt or innocence in a case like the Trayvon Martin debacle. Zimmerman may be a racist monster who shot down an unarmed man with no reason...but we simply do not know that yet and neither do you. Continuing to vent about the unfair nature of our racist society does nothing but pour fuel on a blazing fire and I just do not understand what it is you are trying to accomplish.
Robin Bugbee Terrible, heart wrenching stories that are very impactful but have nothing whatsoever to do with the killing of Trayvon Martin. I continue to encourage you to tone it down. Eliminate the dramatics and let the facts speak for themselves without the melodrama. I am not being disrespectful but realistic. Your continued efforts to dramatize the plight of women of people of color is admirable but simply not helpful in trying to determine Zimmerman's innocence or guilt...and in fact could be making that determination more difficult.
Robin Bugbee Despite your anecdotal reports...they do NOT give you the right to make unsupported claims against ANYONE. Nothing you have said, however dramatic or impactful has any connection to this case or any other. "Historically the failure to punish white woman" is such a broad and generalized comment that I can't conceive of anyone taking it seriously outside of a college seminar. I do not disagree with your conclusions on the history of incarceration in the country but it simply cannot be used to find anyone guilty before they are actually proven to be guilty. That having been said, I do not wish to have a never ending confrontation with you and I suggest your points would be taken more seriously without the stridency and personal claims you rely on.
Robin Bugbee A chilling call from Zimmerman to 911 now appears to contain the racist slur "fucking coon". If that is proven to be the case and this report is accurate it changes my position on this horrendous act and virtually would require the police to arrest Zimmerman on the suspicion of his possible conduct of a racially motivated shooting. Hopefully a grand jury will take steps to bring charges against him. Still innocent until convicted though.
Robin Bugbee The tenor of your messages gets more and more hysterical. I urge you to exam your own personal history here before you continue to post messages based only on your own personal feelings rather than the few facts that are available to us. It is entirely possible that Zimmerman acted out of racial bias. But no, Ms. Casil, despite your anger, there is no was your could possibly know that "as a stone fact". There are no "Stone facts" here that you are privy to other than the senseless killing of a your black man. Your "personal experience as (sic) mutiple crime victim of a never-prosecuted white female" does not give you permission to make wild charges and assumptions not supported by facts.
Robin Bugbee Once again Miss Casil you persist in encouraging a rush to judgement based on the very incomplete evidence of what actually took place the evening Trayvon was shot. This may have been motivated by race, but it is really not possible for you or anyone else to know that based on the information that has been released. It is surely not enough to characterize someone you do not know (and know very little about) based on your generalized historical reports of past racial conflicts and racial profiling. Calm, rather than hystronics needs to prevail here. I urge you to continue to argue for a complete unbiased investigation of exactly what took place and a fair hearing on the charges involved. That is truly the proper way to honor the victim here.
Robin Bugbee Why is it that when someone like you who has not read everything I have read on this subject disagrees with me they always seem to start their response with the words "I think you are missing the point". No Ms. Casil, I am not missing the point but you clearly have missed mine. Despite the miserable way the local authorities have handled this case, you have nothing but the sketchy reports from the media to rely on to find Zimmerman guilty and lock him up. Millenials seem all too eager to jump on the latest on line media messages as finite gospel truth when they rarely are. Yours is a typical and scary rush to judgement based on emotion, not facts, which we still do not have. Trayvon deserves more than that from us all. And I sincerely hope he gets it.
Robin Bugbee Douglas; I think you are asking the right questions and the reality is we do not have the answers. All we currently have are the first news reports which simply do not give us enough information for the conclusions many people are drawing. This investigation should bring out more about what actually happened and Zimmerman's past history and thought process as he ended another person's life for apparently no reason. Neighborhood vigilante programs are dangerous and should not be encouraged and in no instance should any quasi patrol force be armed.
Robin Bugbee No Caralyn: For Zimmerman to claim "self Defense" he has to show that he has complied with the definition of self defense in the Florida law that governs his actions and permits someone who is in fear for their life to defend themself. I do not agree with this law and I agree with you that I do not want to live in a community that makes it as easy as it is in many places in this country to carry a gun. But that is why I do not live in Florida. We need to make choices about how and where we live that are defined by what we believe. If you believe in controlling the availability of firearms as I do then you need to work to change the laws to accomplish this. Pointing the finger at a state like Florida for their deficiencies will not get the situation changed. Getting involved might.
Robin Bugbee Your anger is overwhelming your ability to reason. This instance may very well have been racially motivated but there has been no evidence of that released to the press which i s the only source of information at this point. Until a complete investigation has taken place it is not possible to know what Zimmerman did and why. Simply because he was white is not enough to assume he is therfore racist. He may be and this may have been entirely his fault. If that is proven, he should be punished to the full extent possible. But it is simply premature to judge this as a racially motivated crime until the evidence supports that conclusion.
Robin Bugbee Beer Man. None of know anything about what "investigation" has taken place here other than news reports which have said very little about the process that has and is taking place other than that the Justice Department and the FBI are involved.Unless you have evidence that I have not seen, your comments about the police MAY be true but at this point they are nothing but supposition. Your comment "when someone is killed and you know who the killer is you ALWAYS arrest them" is simply untrue. All of what you assume could be true but until there is more reported it is wrong to make assumptions.
Robin Bugbee Jeff: I understand the history of institutionalized white supremacy of this country and I also agree that the claim of being the "least racially prejudiced person you could possibly know" is somewhat absurd but none of this approaches the importance of presuming innocence until guilt is categoically proven beyond a doubt. I simply do not think it is fair or acceptable to assume that because we come from a history of racial oppression that all white people hold prejudiced views and therefor Zimmerman should be judged to have acted out of racial hatred. We ALL need to be bigger than that narrow focus. Enough said.
Robin Bugbee Jeff. I think it is pretty clear that I am arguing that this investigation should be allowed to take it's course without the involvement of people like either you or me who have so little verifiable facts about the issue that we cannot possibly know the truth of what Zimmerman did or what his motivation was. You simply cannot know if there is probable cause here any more that I can. That is what I am calling you out on. In no way have I defended Zimmerman's actions and I find no reason to justify any of this to you or anyone else. If Zimmerman murdered this young man he should be brought to court and punished. The operable word here is IF. And yes, we should never turn a blind eye to this. The truth will set you free. We just need the truth...not what we "feel" may have taken place.
Robin Bugbee I am not nit-picking. Despite the color of my skin and my fortunate place in life, I am probably the least racially prejudiced person you could possibly know. In fact I was married to a beautiful black woman who was involved in the first civil rights struggles in North Carolina, for 37 years until she died too young six years ago. Despite that, many racially challenged white people have simply assumed I shared their views and have made incredibly bigoted comments to me. I have always resented the assumption that simply because I was white and male, I agreed with them. I also resent the assumption that any other white male does either.
Robin Bugbee Jeff: I certainly do understand court proceeding but I am at a loss to understand how you could possibly understand his "state or mind". I am certainly not arguing that he should get away with killing an apparently defenseless person but I am leery of people coming to their own conclusions about the guilt or innocence of this or any other person on the sole basis of unverified news reports. The FBI and the Justice department are involved in this investigation and yes, I do have enough confidence in our Justice department that they will not allow this to be brushed under the rug. What I am really wary of is someone like you, with a little education and probably not much real experience setting yourself up as the judge and jury concerning "probable cause" with so little information!
Robin Bugbee We have a fundamental difference here: we are presumed innocent unless proven guilty. Zimmerman may be a card carrying cross burning venom spewing bigot for all I or YOU know, but to make the comment that "to assume he is not a bigot is as wrong as assuming he is" is truly appalling. You cannot simply slander people as bigots with no verifiable evidence that this is honest and true. Veracity means something in this society and whether you agree with it or not is not the point. Understanding where we came from and what our likely convictions are is one thing but you are going way over the line when you extrapolate that to mean that you have the right to determine someone's motivation based on what YOU think.
Robin Bugbee "We Are Young" from the band "fun" is an example of the narcissism that seems to characterize Millennials.The words Me, MY, AND I are used 30 times in the song while the word YOU appears only twice. Although the endless catchy refrain is "WE ARE YOUNG", this song was written and sung by a 30 year old (30 used to be considered old) and it became successful because it owes it's popularity to a network TV show and a mainline detroit car company.
Robin Bugbee Jeff: I think you miss the implications of this specific case in favor of broad and generalized comments on racism. All of this may be true and Zimmerman may be an outright bigot...but none of us have enough information to make that claim. "Whay are the laws in Florida amenable to self-defense claims?" because the legislation was proposed and voted in that state. Until the people of that state overturn that law it is just that a "law", You and I can disagree with it (which I do) but unless it is proven to be racially motivated it is wrong to assume that those who support it or claim it's protection are bigots.
Robin Bugbee Please explain why the statement that "our investigation is color-blind" merits condemnation? Their investigation should be color blind and as I understand it both the justice department and the FBI are now involved to insure that is the case. You need to avoid condemning people and institutions before they have given clear indication that they have done something to justify it.
Robin Bugbee Under Fla law, if a person claims self defense he is not committing a crime by defending him or herself. Zimmerman may be guilty of a crime and they need to determine that, but I wouldn't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that he is guilty before basing that conclusion on unverified news reports. Please allow the justice system (with the FBI now involved) to proceed to determine all of the facts in this case. If Zimmerman is indeed guilty he needs to be punished. And the state of Florida needs to review the laws governing this tragedy.
Robin Bugbee Lawrence. I agree with you that this is probably racially motivated but without more information it is simply not possible to be certain. This investigation needs to proceed and it is good news that the justice department and the FBI are watching this.
Robin Bugbee If you understand that concept you have dramatically increased the odds of eventually finding happiness. It is simply untrue that we can all be anything we want to be in any sphere larger than our own where opportunity, chance,competition and the desires of others so comicate our individual efforts and desires.
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Robin Bugbee Agreed. It shouldn't have taken 30 days. But my OPINION or your opinion about a "PARANOID person who sees threats where there are none"is of abolutely no concern and relevance here. The point is we don't know what his motivation was and we certainly do not know if Zimmerman is "paranoid". It's possible he's just a racist asshole but we don't know that either. It should not have taken this long to determine the facts here and, if justified by those facts, to bring Mr. Zimmerman to justice. But you seem to be looking more for your pound of flesh based on hearsay for the most part. It's only a short distance from where you are to a mob with torches stringing a black mad up on a oak tree. Think about that.
Robin Bugbee Amy- you are sincere but misguided. I do not need to be convinced that our society is not fair and that people of color have and continue to suffer from our history of racial intolerance and persecution. No thinking person needs to be convinced of this. My point is that anecdotal evidence is nothing but that: anecdotal. It does not form the basis for making claims that someone is guilty in a specific instance. Mr. Zimmerman may be guilty of the worst things we can imagine but even he, like you, is entitled to the presumtion of innocence until he is proven guilty. Convicting him on annecdotal evidence is not only unnecessary it is grossly unfair to us all no matter what color we are. Please stop attempting to poison the water and then encourage us all to drink it.
Robin Bugbee What in God's name is your point? That people of color are treated unfairly and jailed far more often that white people? Hooray: what a conclusion. It certainly is no surprise to most of us and though it needs to be changed without question, it is No justification for the tendency to reach conclusions regarding guilt or innocence in a case like the Trayvon Martin debacle. Zimmerman may be a racist monster who shot down an unarmed man with no reason...but we simply do not know that yet and neither do you. Continuing to vent about the unfair nature of our racist society does nothing but pour fuel on a blazing fire and I just do not understand what it is you are trying to accomplish.
Robin Bugbee What in God's name is your point? That people of color are treated unfairly and jailed far more often that white people? Hooray: what a conclusion. It certainly is no surprise to most of us and though it needs to be changed without question, it is No justification for the tendency to reach conclusions regarding guilt or innocence in a case like the Trayvon Martin debacle. Zimmerman may be a racist monster who shot down an unarmed man with no reason...but we simply do not know that yet and neither do you. Continuing to vent about the unfair nature of our racist society does nothing but pour fuel on a blazing fire and I just do not understand what it is you are trying to accomplish.
Robin Bugbee Terrible, heart wrenching stories that are very impactful but have nothing whatsoever to do with the killing of Trayvon Martin. I continue to encourage you to tone it down. Eliminate the dramatics and let the facts speak for themselves without the melodrama. I am not being disrespectful but realistic. Your continued efforts to dramatize the plight of women of people of color is admirable but simply not helpful in trying to determine Zimmerman's innocence or guilt...and in fact could be making that determination more difficult.
Robin Bugbee Despite your anecdotal reports...they do NOT give you the right to make unsupported claims against ANYONE. Nothing you have said, however dramatic or impactful has any connection to this case or any other. "Historically the failure to punish white woman" is such a broad and generalized comment that I can't conceive of anyone taking it seriously outside of a college seminar. I do not disagree with your conclusions on the history of incarceration in the country but it simply cannot be used to find anyone guilty before they are actually proven to be guilty. That having been said, I do not wish to have a never ending confrontation with you and I suggest your points would be taken more seriously without the stridency and personal claims you rely on.
Robin Bugbee A chilling call from Zimmerman to 911 now appears to contain the racist slur "fucking coon". If that is proven to be the case and this report is accurate it changes my position on this horrendous act and virtually would require the police to arrest Zimmerman on the suspicion of his possible conduct of a racially motivated shooting. Hopefully a grand jury will take steps to bring charges against him. Still innocent until convicted though.
Robin Bugbee The tenor of your messages gets more and more hysterical. I urge you to exam your own personal history here before you continue to post messages based only on your own personal feelings rather than the few facts that are available to us. It is entirely possible that Zimmerman acted out of racial bias. But no, Ms. Casil, despite your anger, there is no was your could possibly know that "as a stone fact". There are no "Stone facts" here that you are privy to other than the senseless killing of a your black man. Your "personal experience as (sic) mutiple crime victim of a never-prosecuted white female" does not give you permission to make wild charges and assumptions not supported by facts.
Robin Bugbee Once again Miss Casil you persist in encouraging a rush to judgement based on the very incomplete evidence of what actually took place the evening Trayvon was shot. This may have been motivated by race, but it is really not possible for you or anyone else to know that based on the information that has been released. It is surely not enough to characterize someone you do not know (and know very little about) based on your generalized historical reports of past racial conflicts and racial profiling. Calm, rather than hystronics needs to prevail here. I urge you to continue to argue for a complete unbiased investigation of exactly what took place and a fair hearing on the charges involved. That is truly the proper way to honor the victim here.
Robin Bugbee Why is it that when someone like you who has not read everything I have read on this subject disagrees with me they always seem to start their response with the words "I think you are missing the point". No Ms. Casil, I am not missing the point but you clearly have missed mine. Despite the miserable way the local authorities have handled this case, you have nothing but the sketchy reports from the media to rely on to find Zimmerman guilty and lock him up. Millenials seem all too eager to jump on the latest on line media messages as finite gospel truth when they rarely are. Yours is a typical and scary rush to judgement based on emotion, not facts, which we still do not have. Trayvon deserves more than that from us all. And I sincerely hope he gets it.
Robin Bugbee Douglas; I think you are asking the right questions and the reality is we do not have the answers. All we currently have are the first news reports which simply do not give us enough information for the conclusions many people are drawing. This investigation should bring out more about what actually happened and Zimmerman's past history and thought process as he ended another person's life for apparently no reason. Neighborhood vigilante programs are dangerous and should not be encouraged and in no instance should any quasi patrol force be armed.
Robin Bugbee No Caralyn: For Zimmerman to claim "self Defense" he has to show that he has complied with the definition of self defense in the Florida law that governs his actions and permits someone who is in fear for their life to defend themself. I do not agree with this law and I agree with you that I do not want to live in a community that makes it as easy as it is in many places in this country to carry a gun. But that is why I do not live in Florida. We need to make choices about how and where we live that are defined by what we believe. If you believe in controlling the availability of firearms as I do then you need to work to change the laws to accomplish this. Pointing the finger at a state like Florida for their deficiencies will not get the situation changed. Getting involved might.
Robin Bugbee Your anger is overwhelming your ability to reason. This instance may very well have been racially motivated but there has been no evidence of that released to the press which i s the only source of information at this point. Until a complete investigation has taken place it is not possible to know what Zimmerman did and why. Simply because he was white is not enough to assume he is therfore racist. He may be and this may have been entirely his fault. If that is proven, he should be punished to the full extent possible. But it is simply premature to judge this as a racially motivated crime until the evidence supports that conclusion.
Robin Bugbee Beer Man. None of know anything about what "investigation" has taken place here other than news reports which have said very little about the process that has and is taking place other than that the Justice Department and the FBI are involved.Unless you have evidence that I have not seen, your comments about the police MAY be true but at this point they are nothing but supposition. Your comment "when someone is killed and you know who the killer is you ALWAYS arrest them" is simply untrue. All of what you assume could be true but until there is more reported it is wrong to make assumptions.
Robin Bugbee Jeff: I understand the history of institutionalized white supremacy of this country and I also agree that the claim of being the "least racially prejudiced person you could possibly know" is somewhat absurd but none of this approaches the importance of presuming innocence until guilt is categoically proven beyond a doubt. I simply do not think it is fair or acceptable to assume that because we come from a history of racial oppression that all white people hold prejudiced views and therefor Zimmerman should be judged to have acted out of racial hatred. We ALL need to be bigger than that narrow focus. Enough said.
Robin Bugbee Jeff. I think it is pretty clear that I am arguing that this investigation should be allowed to take it's course without the involvement of people like either you or me who have so little verifiable facts about the issue that we cannot possibly know the truth of what Zimmerman did or what his motivation was. You simply cannot know if there is probable cause here any more that I can. That is what I am calling you out on. In no way have I defended Zimmerman's actions and I find no reason to justify any of this to you or anyone else. If Zimmerman murdered this young man he should be brought to court and punished. The operable word here is IF. And yes, we should never turn a blind eye to this. The truth will set you free. We just need the truth...not what we "feel" may have taken place.
Robin Bugbee I am not nit-picking. Despite the color of my skin and my fortunate place in life, I am probably the least racially prejudiced person you could possibly know. In fact I was married to a beautiful black woman who was involved in the first civil rights struggles in North Carolina, for 37 years until she died too young six years ago. Despite that, many racially challenged white people have simply assumed I shared their views and have made incredibly bigoted comments to me. I have always resented the assumption that simply because I was white and male, I agreed with them. I also resent the assumption that any other white male does either.
Robin Bugbee Jeff: I certainly do understand court proceeding but I am at a loss to understand how you could possibly understand his "state or mind". I am certainly not arguing that he should get away with killing an apparently defenseless person but I am leery of people coming to their own conclusions about the guilt or innocence of this or any other person on the sole basis of unverified news reports. The FBI and the Justice department are involved in this investigation and yes, I do have enough confidence in our Justice department that they will not allow this to be brushed under the rug. What I am really wary of is someone like you, with a little education and probably not much real experience setting yourself up as the judge and jury concerning "probable cause" with so little information!
Robin Bugbee We have a fundamental difference here: we are presumed innocent unless proven guilty. Zimmerman may be a card carrying cross burning venom spewing bigot for all I or YOU know, but to make the comment that "to assume he is not a bigot is as wrong as assuming he is" is truly appalling. You cannot simply slander people as bigots with no verifiable evidence that this is honest and true. Veracity means something in this society and whether you agree with it or not is not the point. Understanding where we came from and what our likely convictions are is one thing but you are going way over the line when you extrapolate that to mean that you have the right to determine someone's motivation based on what YOU think.
Robin Bugbee "We Are Young" from the band "fun" is an example of the narcissism that seems to characterize Millennials.The words Me, MY, AND I are used 30 times in the song while the word YOU appears only twice. Although the endless catchy refrain is "WE ARE YOUNG", this song was written and sung by a 30 year old (30 used to be considered old) and it became successful because it owes it's popularity to a network TV show and a mainline detroit car company.
Robin Bugbee Jeff: I think you miss the implications of this specific case in favor of broad and generalized comments on racism. All of this may be true and Zimmerman may be an outright bigot...but none of us have enough information to make that claim. "Whay are the laws in Florida amenable to self-defense claims?" because the legislation was proposed and voted in that state. Until the people of that state overturn that law it is just that a "law", You and I can disagree with it (which I do) but unless it is proven to be racially motivated it is wrong to assume that those who support it or claim it's protection are bigots.
Robin Bugbee Please explain why the statement that "our investigation is color-blind" merits condemnation? Their investigation should be color blind and as I understand it both the justice department and the FBI are now involved to insure that is the case. You need to avoid condemning people and institutions before they have given clear indication that they have done something to justify it.
Robin Bugbee Under Fla law, if a person claims self defense he is not committing a crime by defending him or herself. Zimmerman may be guilty of a crime and they need to determine that, but I wouldn't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that he is guilty before basing that conclusion on unverified news reports. Please allow the justice system (with the FBI now involved) to proceed to determine all of the facts in this case. If Zimmerman is indeed guilty he needs to be punished. And the state of Florida needs to review the laws governing this tragedy.
Robin Bugbee Lawrence. I agree with you that this is probably racially motivated but without more information it is simply not possible to be certain. This investigation needs to proceed and it is good news that the justice department and the FBI are watching this.
Robin Bugbee If you understand that concept you have dramatically increased the odds of eventually finding happiness. It is simply untrue that we can all be anything we want to be in any sphere larger than our own where opportunity, chance,competition and the desires of others so comicate our individual efforts and desires.