What Have the Politicians in Washington Given Us? @PolicyMic | Michael Tanner
Ask a question or respond to Michael Tanner and David Callahan in 800 characters or less. The user with the most mics wins.

What Have the Politicians in Washington Given Us?

So far Occupy Wall Street and its imitators across the country have directed their rage at Wall Street and the rich in general. But they would be better served if they aimed their criticism at the true authors of this country’s problems: the politicians in Washington.

 

Obviously there are unscrupulous businessmen, and some on Wall Street behaved unethically, if not dishonestly taking advantage of lax oversight and bailouts to make fortunes while the rest of the economy suffered. But, if you look at the one percent that OWS is denouncing, most of them got rich by giving us things that makes us better off, or at least things that we want.  Of the top one percent of earners, roughly a third are entrepreneurs or managers of nonfinancial businesses. Nearly 16 percent are doctors or other medical professionals.  Lawyers, engineers, scientists, and computer professionals make up another 15 percent. In fact, fewer than 14 percent are involved in the financial industry at all. And even those much reviled bankers provide valuable services, including generating the capital that enables businesses to start, expand, and hire workers. At the same time, the rich are paying a disproportionate share of the taxes and contributing more than $150 billion annually to charity.

 

On the other hand, what have the politicians in Washington given us?

 

Many of the students taking part in the OWS protests are reportedly concerned about the cost of their student loans. Since the average student who graduates this year will do so with a debt of more than $25,000, that concern is understandable, though there is ample reason to believe that government is more responsible for that debt than the rich or even the banks. But, as bad as that debt is, worse is the $48,000 that each of those students owes because the politicians in Washington can’t stop spending. That’s each student’s share of our $15 trillion national debt.

 

And that doesn’t even take into account the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicare. If one counted the full indebtedness of the U.S. government, each of those students owes more than $196,000.

 

And, if they are worried about jobs, well the blame for that can also be laid at the feet of big-spending politicians in Washington. The International Monetary Fund looked at the relationship between federal debt levels and economic growth and concluded that from 1890-2000, those countries with high debt levels consistently experienced slower economic growth than those with low debt levels. Similarly, Carmen Reinhardt of the University of Maryland and Kenneth Rogoff of Harvard concluded that countries with a debt totaling more than 90 percent of GDP have median growth rates 1 percent lower than countries with a lower debt, and average growth rates nearly 4 percent lower.

 

And, it's not just debt, it is also the size of government. Numerous academic studies show that when government grows too large, costly, and intrusive, it acts as an economic anchor. For example, a pair of studies by Harvard’s Robert Barro found that “public consumption spending is systematically inversely related to economic growth” and and that there is a “significantly negative relation between the growth of real GDP and the growth of the government share of GDP.” Similarly, an empirical analysis of 23 OECD countries by Florida State University economist James Gwartney and his colleagues found that a ten percentage point increase in government consumption as a share of GDP reduced the growth rate of real GDP by one percent. In other words, as government spending goes up, economic growth goes down. 

 

In fact, even the current economic crisis has its roots in Washington. The housing bubble and the crash which followed were driven in large part by government policies that discouraged old-fashioned lending criteria such as down payments, as well as government-run institutions such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, whose implicit government guarantee encouraged speculation on mortgage-backed securities. Meanwhile, other government policies deliberately targeted housing loans to low-income buyers who were far more likely to default.

 

There are certainly more than a few bad apples on Wall Street. But for all their faults, we are generally better off with the rich than without them. Can anyone say the same for big government?


Photo Credit: geetarchurchy

 

Sign up to join the discussion

Reply to this article

Guest Professor

Guest Professor Michael Tanner

A Cato Institute senior fellow, Michael Tanner heads research into a variety of domestic policies with a particular emphasis on health care reform, social welfare policy, and Social Security. Tanner's writings have appeared in nearly every major American newspaper, including the New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Wall Street Journal, and USA Today. A prolific writer and frequent guest lecturer, Tanner appears regularly on network and cable news programs. The New York Times refers to him as "a lucid writer and skilled polemicist."...

Competition has Finished

Grand Prize

Winner receives the Great Debater badge and + 10 mics.

Sponsor

Interested in hosting a debate? Email us at Editorial (at) policymic.com

PolicyMic

The Discussion

I incline to agree with both Mr. Tanner and Jeff Tarbell. Anne Landers used to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The *country* may be broken, but as far as Washington insiders are concerned, their system isn't. It gives them what they want: jobs, money, power. So why do they have an incentive to fix it? They don't. You would have to tear down the entire current system and rebuild it to get at the root of the problem. Do any of us have the time and energy for that?

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

There's big government, and there's big won't-do-anything-to-help-the-economy-so-our-party-can-regain-the-White House government. That's the one you're looking at right now.

Neither party is willing to really plug tax loopholes or hold Wall Street accountable. Obama's campaign was drowning in Wall Street cash, and he's surrounded himself with some of the same culprits who engineered this mess. They all sit on the same boards, from Wall Street

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

1 Replies

  • Jeff Tarbell 6 months ago to Washington to academia. It'...

to Washington to academia. It's an elitist culture as much as anything else.

People are angry because taxpayers bailed out these investment firms after they lobbied to get regulations relaxed, and then gave themselves bonuses while the rest of us suffered because of those unregulated practices. OWS sees Washington as a creature of Wall Street; a broken system that is beyond self-improvement in its current state.

OWS doesn't want to destroy the 1%. They just want a government that doesn't ignore the needs of the other 99.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

I can't believe some of the arguments that have made it into Mr. Tanner's article here.

The argument that government debt hurts economic growth is to simply imply a causation from a correlation you've found? That's it?

I mean, come on. Am I supposed to believe that the reason China and other developing countries have higher growth rates is because of low debt? How about the many more obvious reasons, like say the fact that they are developing and have a lot of room to grow?

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Mr. Tanner, thank you for trying to bring some balance to this very unbalanced debate.

You really can't bribe someone unless he agrees to accept it. If corporations are effectively buying less regulation and the like, politicians are accepting it and doing their bidding. If liberals think Wall Street should not be a part of it's own regulation, why do they insist that the people who are taking their bribes are the right people?

The OWS perspective is that bankers are all crooks, but the protesters don't grasp the fact that banks don't legislate, politicians do. The moral of this story is that change must come by electing new people to Congress who won't take bribes from
anybody and eliminating those things cause bad laws to be enacted.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

1 Replies

  • Jon Awbrey 6 months ago The protesters across the country, ...

  • No longer with us
  • 6 months ago

This account has been disabled.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!
  • No longer with us
  • 6 months ago

This account has been disabled.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

1 Replies

  • Jon Awbrey 6 months ago Everyone recognizes that Wall Stree...

  • No longer with us
  • 6 months ago

This account has been disabled.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

The Fannie and Freddie argument ignores the fact the private sector led the way in the subprime market. For the first 2 years--they would later enter the market in a big way--Fannie and Freddie were barred from the subprime market by the Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight Agency . Furthermore the implicit government guarantee of the Fannie and Freddie loans--something that most people on the left and right agree was a bad idea-kept the market from panicking about those loans.

Most of the private subprime players were not subject to the CRA that supposedly forced banks to make bad loans and there is no evidence of the kind of court battle you would expect from well-funded companies if they truly thought they were being forced to make potentially catastrophic loans.

  • Mic this! 4
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

1 Replies

  • George Thomas 6 months ago I am sure there is a relationship b...

I am sure there is a relationship between debt and economic growth. When the economy grows, there is less debt. Another reason for the relationship is that at some point government borrowing does becomes a problem, particularly in countries with little capital. Similarly, at some point taxation probably does inhibit growth. Judging by the comparatively anemic job growth during the last decade, that point does not lie between a top rate of 35% and a top rate of 39.6%.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Washington makes the rules. But it's not completely 'either/or.'
The revolving door tween W.DC and Wall St is well known.
It's both and then some.
Not all the stringpullers are American citizens

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Mr Tanner.

One question. Who pays your salary? Isn't it the same Wall Street Monsters that OWS is demonstrating against, as well as their Republican Servants? Last I heard, that's where CATO gets its funding.

So what I see here in your article is not fact, or even honest opinion, but instead its what you are paid to think about. Ways to obfuscate, transfer blame and otherwise muddy up the waters of rational discussion regarding what needs to be done to right the ship of state that is America. And sadly, I see that otherwise intelligent souls are paying attention to you and yours.

Only twice in the history of the country has the disparity between the ultra rich and the rest of us been so great. At the start of the Great Depression and NOW.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

4 Replies

  • Jacob Shmukler 6 months ago Darwin, According to Cato's...

  • Thomas Repetti 6 months ago Generally I view this sort of argum...

  • Darwin Long 6 months ago OK, here you go Foundation suppo...

Darwin,

According to Cato's 2010 Annual Report, they received 81% of their funding from individuals and 2% from corporations. To blame Mr. Tanner's opinions on the fact that Cato *supposedly* gets all its funding from "Wall Street Monsters" is intellectually lazy and flat out false. The fact that you say "last I heard that's where CATO gets its funding" shows that either you really haven't heard or just have very unreliable sources. Debate his arguments, don't make ad hominem attacks questioning his motivations. It will do the "rational discussion" you claim to worry about a lot of good.

  • Mic this! 3
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Generally I view this sort of argument as an attempt to assassination the credibility of a group when one cannot form a better argument, my grandfather deploys this all the time never mind he never bothers to research himself.

  • Mic this! 3
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

OK, here you go

Foundation support

In 2010, the Cato Institute has been supported by some 60 plus foundations[75] including:

Atlantic Philanthropies
Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation
Earhart Foundation
JM Foundation, founded by businessman Jeremiah Milbank
John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.
Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation
Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation
Castle Rock Foundation (formerly known as The Coors Foundation)
Scaife Foundations (Sarah Mellon Scaife, Carthage)
Ford Foundation
Ploughshares Fund
Marijuana Policy Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute#Funding

Yep, looks like a wide variety of organizations support CATO. All of them highly conservative - Koch bros. of course being my favorite

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Deny the facts all you like, they're still there. Now on to the statements in the article.

OWS uses the number 1%, only because it makes a good sound byte. 1% includes people making less than 250k, and no one believes these middle class citizens are able to manipulate the markets the way the truly wealthy can.

What has Washington given us? Exactly what they were paid to give us. Paid by the PAC's and the lobbyists and the numerous forms of "legal" bribery available to those with REAL money. The same people who's charitable foundations support the CATO institute. Now why would they want to obfuscate the real source of our big government and high debt? Could it be because their "suggestions" to the pols brought us to this position?

Naaaah.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!
  • No longer with us
  • 6 months ago

This account has been disabled.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

And who pray tell do you think made the strongest effort to roll back regulations and oversight? Who paid for the campaigns of many of these politicians? The same people and organizations who ultimately benefited from the toxic environment and caused the economic implosion.

The problem with just pinning the blame on Washington is that it sides steps the very reason our political leadership is in the sorry state its in: the excessive amount of corporate money and influence flooding into the political process.

Ultimately who benefits the most from lower taxes, less regulations, little oversight, and extensive government spending? The same corporate entities of Wall Street who want less regulations, less accountability, and more of our money.

  • Mic this! 3
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

You miss the central issues of OWS, i.e. a system that rewards greed and the accumulation of money and power at the top and the resulting farce of a representative democracy that we live under.

Magrit Kennidy has shown that 40% of everything you buy goes to interest, in one form or another. And, 20% of your 401k goes to bank skimming. Media is controlled, quite tightly with an echo chamber that deludes, and misinforms, particularly low information voters. Laws are written by lobyists, politicians owned, and critical decisions are made by financial interests who are not accountable to the public . Conservatives and most libertarians lack empathy and extol rugged individualism that is blind to the contributions of wage slaves, and outright slaves. They are blind to their privilege.

  • Mic this! 2
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

I agree with a large part of what is said in the article. I always found it a little funny that the Occupy Movement chose to occupy Wall Street, as if the bankers were one day going to come into work and choose not to try and make millions of dollars. Because of that, I always thought the movement would have been better off occupying Capitol Hill.

That being said, it is difficult to defend the bankers even if they do "generate the capital that allows businesses" to thrive. That function of Wall Street is great when it is working, but when the same bankers take those businesses' workers' mortgages and 401Ks and bundle them and/or leverage them at unconscionable rates only to see their house of cards come tumbling down is when everyone can and should take issue with their practices.

  • Mic this! 3
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

The truth is, some on Wall Street, many in government, & the whole of the Fed all share the blame for what has happened. The one thing they have in common is the inherent fallibility of human beings which is something that cannot be legislated into genetic non-existence. The best bet is to regulate what can be done. Where do we get the most benefit from the application of this? We get it from binding the government. If we take away the government's ability to hand out special privileges to anyone & reintroduce the protection of the individual as its top priority, as society & all else grows from the individual, then we succeed in keeping groups from growing anti-competitively through legal protection from the government while guaranteeing true legal recourse to those who are wronged.

  • Mic this! 3
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

I applaud your attempt to bring the two camps together. However, I don't hear anyone from OWS complaining about Solyndra or the auto bailouts. They also favor bailing out home owners and student loan holders.

When it comes to campaign spending, we hear a lot from OWS about the influence of corporate money, but not a peep about the unions shelling out millions of dollars to the very same people who often determine their salaries and benefits.

As for spending, they all want to slash the military, but don't touch the real drivers of our debt; medicare, medicaid, social security.

In sum, there seems to be a lot of selective outrage. Libertarians should be given credit for having a consistent message. It would be nice if OWS followed suit.

  • Mic this! 3
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

29 Replies

  • Jon Awbrey 6 months ago The only thing Libertarians are con...

  • Gary W. Patterson, Jr. 6 months ago Thanks for your always insightful c...

  • Jon Awbrey 6 months ago You are most welcome. The truth ...

  • No longer with us
  • 6 months ago

This account has been disabled.

  • Mic this! 2
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Thanks for your always insightful commentary.

  • Mic this! 2
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!
  • No longer with us
  • 6 months ago

This account has been disabled.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

I think a little selective outrage might be justified - after all, bank bailouts rewarded a bubble brought on by inadequately regulated banking practiced that created moral hazard within the institutions themselves. GM and Chrysler had to go through Chapter 11.

And I think a lot of OWS would rather have seen the hundreds of billions in taxpayer cost from TARP be put aside to stabilize social programs like medicare, medicaid, and social security.

And Solyndra is a totally separate issue from bailouts - it was an industry the government invested in at its outset, badly managed, yes, but not bailed out. The government also still subsidizes energy industries Solyndra must compete with, so some might argue it's only fair to subsidize companies like Solyndra as well.

  • Mic this! 2
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Autocratic as far as their own lives are concerned, yes. However, a "Libertarian" that espouses autocracy over another's life is not Libertarian at all.

As far as "capitulating to corporate power over personal freedom at every available turn" goes, I have to ask what are you talking about? Blanket generalizations are never the things that are taken seriously. So, I present to you this challenge, be specific. I would really be interested to know where you see this capitulation.

  • Mic this! 2
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

I don't agree that Solyndra was a "totally separate issue from the bailouts". The issue I see here is fiscal responsability. Wether you view it as a "bail out" or a "hand out", the government should not be giving money to losing and/or irresponsible corporations. I think fiscal responsibility -is- the issue, and if OWS wants to make a difference, they might do better in Washington as suggested by the author above.

  • Mic this! 2
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Gary: There are people with extreme opinions on both end, but I think sane liberals would agree with you that medicare and medicaid and other social entitlement programs cannot be sustained at the present rate.

But then here's another related issue, to make pensions and social programs sustainable we would need to increase individual contribution, however that has become increasingly difficult over the decades with the vast wealth gap. If you fix the problems that have led to this gap and thereby allow even generation of wealth across the board then it is reasonable and appropriate to ask individuals to contribute more to such social programs thereby helping bring down the cost of these programs. Most social programs can be fixed this way, but first you need to have a nourishing system.

  • Mic this! 3
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Apparently none of the "sane" liberals reside in Congress or the White House. Both camps have paid a lot of lip service to wishing to reform the entitlements, but for some reason we have yet to see pencil hit paper.

Increasing contribution isn't the only way to address entitlements. We could also means test or raise the eligibility dates. We could let some younger people opt out of social security.

Finally, I am not sure how you promote "even generation of wealth across the board." I don't even think that is a laudible goal. People are compensated differently for a host of reasons; among them effort, skill, value, etc. . .

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

While predictability is nice, consistency is not always a virtue especially if one tries to consistently pursue flawed or failed platforms. I'd much rather prefer some one who insists on being pragmatic over being a purist.

To address Unions, out of the top ten campaign contributors last I checked they ranked ranked number 10. Hardly chump change compared to us, but nothing compared to the arsenal the private sector has at its disposal.

Personally I am made just as uncomfortable about union money as I am about corporate money because ultimately both drown out the voice of everyday citizens. I'd firmly support a constitutional amendment that would curb the influence of money in our political process regardless who it comes from.

  • Mic this! 4
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Let me explain what I mean by "even generation of wealth across the board.": I mean a system where hard-work and intellect is rewarded fairly. A system where profit is spread equitably among people.

The problem with the current system is that corporations - and thus by extension - people controlling the corporations (investors, CEOs, etc. ) who together constitute a very tiny fraction of society are becoming increasingly rich at the expense of most people in society. They are compensated disproportionately for their work, while actual workers for these corporations are not being compensated appropriately. In this system vast majority of people are left with sub-par purchasing power, and this leads to all sorts of economic problems.

  • Mic this! 3
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Sounds like a state run, centrally planned economy. As you may have noticed, there are many countries that have followed that model throughout the course of history. I don't seem to remember many success stories.

Who should determine how much a worker is paid? Some benevolent dictator? Wise men in D.C.?

Who decides what is equitable?

When you claim that the "vast majority of people are left w/ sub par purchasing power" are you referring to Americans? Do you really think that's the case? What would be enough in your mind to suit the needs of the average 4 person family?

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Selective outrage is a terminal condition brought on by selective hearing, selective reporting. Pestilent disease, it causes tunnel vision and inability to see the bigger picture.

  • Mic this! 3
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Thomas, this website seems to suggest that unions spend a lot more than you think:

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

Moreover, nearly every dime of union money goes to Democrats, while the private sector donors are more evenly split b/w the two parties.

For me, the public unions are the most offensive considering they are directly contributing to the people who will be sitting at the other side of the bargaining table.

I do appreciate that you want to restrict donors of all stripes.

Here's an interesting article on campaigns and free speech:

http://www.libertarianism.org/blog/shouting-louder-equality-campaign-finance

I am sure Jon will particularly enjoy the article.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

I wouldn't go so far as to assume libertarians hate freedom as you imply. I think the flaw in the Libertarian is not that they are autocratic, but that they generally don't realize that with unregulated markets comes, unfettered Big Business which themselves bring the risk of tyranny if left unchecked.

I also imagine never living during the Industrial Revolution and the Gilded Age they know not the horrors of capitalism's dark side which we have spent generations trying to contain.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!
  • No longer with us
  • 6 months ago

This account has been disabled.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!
  • No longer with us
  • 6 months ago

This account has been disabled.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

I think the reason why Sylondra doesn't come is is in part, its not widely known. Most media outlets gave it scant coverage.

The other part being, they weren't responsible for the problems OWS primarily is focusing on, that being the massive amounts of inequality and the insecurities and instability that come with it.

Also the loans the received approx. 500 million in loans, the bank bailouts were closer to 500 BILLION. So while the sylondra scandal was a major embarrassment for the administration, it doesn't strike the same nerve as the banks getting bail outs for their poor decisions then proceeded to grant themselves huge bonus while laying off thousands.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Jon, I'm utterly speechless, both by how thoroughly you misunderstand libertarianism and at how poorly you attempt to mask that through vague, senseless, and hackneyed political rhetoric.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

I guess my point is this: are you for gov't intervention in private industry or not? Are bailouts of auto companies and solar manufacturers just fine and dandy b/c they benefit progressive interests? Should we bailout people who were irresponsible in buying homes they couldn't afford or student loans they have no chance of repaying with their sociology degree? Some consistency would be nice. At least the banks paid back their loans, for the most part.

As for the Solyndra scandal coverage, I completely agree. Something tells me if this were George Bush giving hundreds of millions to a company headed by a political donor, this might have received a little more coverage.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Gary, I'm for regulation of private industry to protect the general public from a collapse like we saw 3 years ago. The rampant subprime lending coupled with massive credit default swaps is the equivalent of a you giving your neighbor's kid a flamethrower then taking out a fire insurance policy on his house - the banks had huge incentives to encourage customers to take on far too much risk. So what if the banks paid it back? Their practices eventually made themselves millions of dollars while millions of people lost their homes. People shouldn't take loans they don't think they'll make back, but the banks had the final decisions to approving those risky loans.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Do you really think banks didn't lose billions of dollars? Have you taken a look at Bank of America, Citibank, Chase, Goldman, Lehman, etc. . . stock prices?

Not to mention, Fannie and Freddie played a very large role in the entire debacle. The total bill for their failings may reach a trillion dollars.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Gary, I do not think that is selective outrage. Many in OWS have different values than you appear to have. They do not oppose all bailouts. Thy believe that the government people with limited resources, not the wealthy. You could suggest with greater justice that OWS should be outraged that the government doesn't means test Medicare, as you suggest below.

They support cutting defense because they believe that our country will be safe with a smaller military, not because they share your concern about the deficit. If concern about the deficit were the driving force for their belief in cutting defense, consistency would demand that they address entitlements.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

You're right, I readily admit to having different values than OWS.

I thought the gov't was for all of us; rich, poor and everyone in between.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Gary, much of what government does benefits everyone: defense, law enforcement, education, infrastructure. Does your believe in the government being for all of us require that you oppose any program designed to help people get food, shelter, clothing, and/or basic medical care on the grounds that those programs will help people with limited incomes more than the wealthy?

Believing that government programs for people in need are overly generous and overly broad is a different issue than opposing such programs on principle.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Thomas, it's not that Libertarians "generally don't realize that with unregulated markets comes, unfettered Big Business which themselves bring the risk of tyranny if left unchecked;" rather it's that Libertarians understand that people will do what they will regardless and, as such, should be allowed to learn from their own mistakes thereby decreasing the possibility of such a mistake being made again and it also teaches personal responsibility which defends one against entitlement. Additionally, having a government in place that protects the individual sets the stage for legal recourse against tyrannical businesses/individuals. What we currently see is government-protected tyranny at the hands of special interest groups (corporations and unions, alike).

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Thomas, it's not that Libertarians "generally don't realize that with unregulated markets comes, unfettered Big Business which themselves bring the risk of tyranny if left unchecked;" rather it's that Libertarians understand that people will do what they will regardless and, as such, should be allowed to learn from their own mistakes thereby decreasing the possibility of such a mistake being made again and it also teaches personal responsibility which defends one against entitlement. Additionally, having a government in place that protects the individual sets the stage for legal recourse against tyrannical businesses/individuals. What we currently see is government-protected tyranny at the hands of special interest groups (corporations and unions, alike).

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Thomas, Libertarians are quite aware of the "possibility" however that becomes nullified quite a bit when one takes government-backed tyranny out of the picture. If government is not able to churn out anti-competitive legislation, the FED isn't allowed to create inflation, and people are forced to take personal responsibility instead of entitlement, there is little holding society back from progressing. However, in our current state of affairs, we find ourselves falling further down the list of most free countries. This is not a product of Capitalism, but of Crony-Capitalism/Corporatism. We are not the victims of the free market as we do not enjoy such freedom. Our market is regulated by special interests backed by government. The less free we have become the worse off we now are.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Sorry for the double post. The site said it didn't post and sent me to an error page both times.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

Michael, you should be aware that government "regulation" and FED inflation, artificially-low interest rates, etc, all combined to make the collapse possible. It could never have happened on anything near that scale if government hadn't colluded with special interest groups to pass anti-competitive legislation that gave "legal" protection to the activities of these groups. Additionally, because the FED artificially lowered the interest rate businesses were not able to correctly identify the amount of risk that was required to do what they did, thereby making bad choices. You cannot regulate genetic innateness within individuals, but you CAN take away government's ability to give special privileges to one group over another, which leaves everyone on a much more level playing field.

  • Mic this! 0
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!
  • No longer with us
  • 6 months ago

This account has been disabled.

  • Mic this! 2
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

2 Replies

  • Darin Jensen 6 months ago If the "management" of go...

  • Chris Inks 6 months ago The only way Wall Street can "...

If the "management" of government is Wall Street, it exists only by the will and/or consent of the people. And if such is the thinking of the people in the OWS, then they are only serving to ratify the "vote" that has turned Wall Street into "management". As suggested by the author, I think they would do better to bring their voice to Washington and help restore the order established by the Constitution.

  • Mic this! 1
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!

The only way Wall Street can "manage" government is if government is given the ability to dole out special privileges. Therein lies the problem. Unions want special privileges, the NRA wants special privileges, the housing industry wants special privileges, banks want special privileges, corporations want special privileges...it never ends. However, if the government were to be bound in such a way that it was no longer able to give out these special privileges, then no one would be able to harm another with the legal protection of the government; no one would be able to be inefficient & survive because government would no longer be able to prop them up. At this point government could then concentrate on its true purpose, protection of the individual, which indirectly protects society.

  • Mic this! 2
  • Reply
char limit
Please wait before posting another comment to this article. Thanks!