We’ve Had Enough Government ‘Stimulation’ @PolicyMic | Tad DeHaven
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We’ve Had Enough Government ‘Stimulation’

After three years and $4 trillion in combined deficit spending, unemployment remains stubbornly high and the economy sluggish. That people are still asking what the government can do to stimulate the economy is mind-boggling.

 

That the Keynesian-inspired deficit spending binge did create jobs isn't in question. The real question is whether it created any net jobs after all the negative effects of the spending and debt are taken into account. How many private-sector jobs were lost or not created in the first place because of the resources diverted to the government for its job creation? How many jobs are being lost or not created because of increased uncertainty in the business community over future tax increases and other detrimental government policies?

 

Don't expect the disciples of interventionist government to attempt an answer to those questions any time soon. It has simply become gospel in some quarters that massive deficit spending is necessary to get the economy back on its feet.

 

The idea that government spending can “make up for” a slow-down in private economic activity has already been discredited by the historical record including the Great Depression and Japan's recent "lost decade."

 

Our own history offers evidence that reducing the government's footprint on the private sector is the better way to get the economy going.

 

Take for example, the "Not-So-Great Depression" of 1920-21. Cato Institute scholar Jim Powell notes that President Warren G. Harding inherited from his predecessor Woodrow Wilson “a post-World War I depression that was almost as severe, from peak to trough, as the Great Contraction from 1929 to 1933 that FDR would later inherit.” Instead of resorting to deficit spending to "stimulate" the economy, taxes and government spending were cut. The economy took off.

 

Similarly, fears at the end of World War II that demobilization would result in double-digit unemployment when the troops returned home were unrealized. Instead, spending was dramatically reduced, economic controls were lifted, and the returning troops were successfully reintegrated into the economy.

 

Therefore, the focus of policymakers in Washington should be on fostering long-term economic growth instead of futilely trying to jump-start the economy with costly short-term government spending sprees. In order to reignite economic growth and job creation, the federal government should enact dramatic cuts in government spending, eliminate burdensome regulations, and scuttle restrictions on foreign trade.

 

The budgetary reality is that policymakers today have no choice but to drastically reduce spending if we are to head off the looming fiscal train wreck. Stimulus proponents generally recognize that our fiscal path is unsustainable, but they argue that the current debt binge is nonetheless critical to an economic recovery.

 

There’s no more evidence for this belief than there is for the existence of the tooth fairy.

 

Not only has Washington's profligacy left us worse off, our children now face the prospect of reduced living standards and crushing debt.

 

Photo Credit: Wikimedia Commons

 

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Guest Professor

Guest Professor Tad DeHaven

Cato Institute. Tad DeHaven is a budget analyst on federal and state budget issues for the Cato Institute. Previously he was a deputy director of the Indiana Office of Management and Budget. DeHaven also worked as a budget policy advisor to Senators Jeff Sessions (R-AL) and Tom Coburn (R-OK). In 2010, he was named to Florida Governor Rick Scott's Economic Advisory Council. His articles have been published in the Washington Post, Washington Times, New York Post, Wall Street Journal Online, National Review and Politico.com. He has appeared on the CBS Evening News, CNBC, Fox News Channel, Fox Business Channel, and NPR....

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The Discussion

Keynes did not call for fiscal stimulus any time there was an economic downturn, only those that didn't respond to monetary stimulus. The current one seems to qualify. When I looked at significant post WW II recessions, increased spending as a % of GDP was a part of every recovery.

In the early 1980's, we set post WW II records for spending as a % of GDP in FY 1981, again in FY 1982, and a third straight year in FY 1983. We did not stop setting new spending records until all of the 2.7 million lost private sector jobs had been recovered. Until commentators like this author want to explain to me how Reagan's record spending in these years was wrong despite the positive results, they have no credibility to me.

On the other hand we cut spending in FY 2010 and the recovery faltered.

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Here I sit on Thanksgiving evening considering how to best put forth my thoughts on this matter.

For the last couple of years, during these tough economic times, whenever one of my clients has been unable to pay me my usual fee, I have accepted whatever was offered and asked them to help me in whatever way they can as I will be helping them.

Government codifies this arrangement. We pay into the government as we are able, and that money comes back out for the good of all. At least in theory. The problem is that the system has been corrupted by greed. It can be brought back.

I want to help my neighbors. I want to give them jobs. There is work that needs to be done in the infrastructure of the nation. I want my neighbors to do that work. That will be helping me as I help them.

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1 Replies

  • Melanie Coon 6 months ago EXACTLY! There are right kinds of s...

EXACTLY! There are right kinds of spending to be doing at this time, particularly taking care of the infrastructure critical to our future and R&D too big for the private sector. Building infrastructure in the MEast is a waste of defense dollars that could refurbish and modernize our forces! Mr. DeHaven also neglects that the global market is on the cusp of another economic revolution (as when we advanced from the agrarian to the industrial economy); our government can allocate tax dollars to fund what industry lacks either the vision, market or moxy to sell to stockholders . Such public investment heightens prosperity for all and ensures our continuing relevance/leadership. The principled attitude you advance--help your neighbor and afford them the dignity of helping in return is key!!!

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The thing is government spending can't be the engine of economic growth, I think that's something most of us can agree on. Public works, like tax cuts, are temporary solutions and should only be used when the situation calls for it. With that said, its a valuable tool that should not be dismissed.

Public works create jobs in a local economy, these workers have to eat and sleep somewhere and this creates demand for goods and services of the private sector. Ideally by the time the public works project is complete, the economy has been jump started by the extra economic activity, much like tax cuts are supposed to do.

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2 Replies

  • Thomas Repetti 6 months ago What public works have over tax cut...

  • Paul Anderson 6 months ago I really hate to say this, but I th...

What public works have over tax cuts though is the residual effect which leaves behind facilities and infrastructure that can be used by the locals long after the effects of the stimulus are long gone, especially things like public transit, community centers, and the like.

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I really hate to say this, but I think you're being overly optimistic about the crowd here. I'm not sure everyone believes that public works help the economy. Nor do they accept that our roads and bridges are deteriorating.

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The oversight in this article is staggering. The author points to the two post-WW eras as times when government spending decreased, and economic activity flourished without mentioning that the U.S. emerged from both WWs with significant economic advantages and without mentioning the GI Bill as a form of stimulus. He mentions Harding's response in 1920-21 while calling for freer trade without acknowledging the fact that tariffs under Harding were the highest ever and without mentioning the staggering current US trade deficit. He mentions deregulation seeming to ignore what caused the current econ crisis.

What needs to be taken into account is the fact that economic conditions are not the same as they were 90 or even 65 years ago. Similar responses will not yield similar results.

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This debate has served as a good reminder, to me at least, that the “pump-priming” true believers can never be wrong. Here’s how it works:

Recession hits. True believers argue for more spending.

Three possible scenarios:

1. The recession ends relatively quickly and sustained economic growth returns. True believers take a victory lap.

2. The recession ends but economic growth remains sluggish and unemployment high. True believers argue that government spending prevented a longer, deeper recession or even depression. True believers also argue that their original predictions of a stronger economic rebound would have come true had the government spent even more money.

3. The recession worsens and/or turns into a depression. True believers argue that the government simply didn’t spend enough money.

In scenarios 2 or 3, the true believers call for more government spending. Scenario 1 occurs. True believers take a victory lap. Otherwise, it’s back to scenarios 2 or 3.

Lather, rinse, repeat, (and continuously cite Mark Zandi despite the fact that his forecasts are about as accurate as a blind archer).

The true believers possess an almost child-like belief in the ability of “the government” to manage the needs and problems of 300 million individuals. Unfortunately, “the government” is not some altruistic and impartial wizard that can simply wave a wand and make the lame walk and the blind see (including Mark Zandi). Rather, “the government” consists of fallible human beings who make mistakes and pursue their own self-interest just like the rest of us. And they don’t possess magic wands – just the power to rob Peter in order to pay Paul.

Lew Daly argues that what the country needs is an FDR-styled “jobs program,” I’ll simply note that the word “boondoggle” was coined to describe New Deal jobs programs. Louis Armstrong, take it away...

http://www.leoslyrics.com/louis-armstrong/w-p-a-lyrics/

Note: For lots of information on how government spending siphons off resources from more productive to less productive uses, check out www.DownsizingGovernment.org.

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4 Replies

  • John Doble 6 months ago Really? Childlike? I'm glad t...

  • Tim Martinez 6 months ago Nobody knows a "true believer&...

  • Paul Anderson 6 months ago Actually...FDR era jobs programs we...

Really? Childlike? I'm glad that you have such great respect for others political opinions. Perhaps you should start from the premise that your opponents are decent people with reasons for their arguments without insulting their character from the get-go.

And thank you, but I won't check out your website. I seldom believe partisans who refer to their own work rather than that of independent analysts.

As it is, situation 2 and 3 hardly apply in this case as economists revised their understanding of the recession only a year or two ago after they realized that they drastically underestimated its severity. The stimulus genuinely WAS too small to deal with the crisis. And ignoring the massive investment of the original GI bill in human capital is a massive oversight.

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Nobody knows a "true believer" like Tad.



Thanks for answering the logical criticisms put forth. Well, thanks in advance at least, as I'm sure you'll get around to answering them at least.



"For lots of information on how government spending siphons off resources from more productive to less productive uses, check out..."


Yeah right. And if I don't find it, I'm just not looking hard enough, right?

Please provide one direct link from that website that offers what you say we should be able to find, and addresses the point in my post below on how crowding out is not an issue.

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Actually...FDR era jobs programs were notoriously stingy in their implementation...

But since you didn't even bother to make any arguments against demand-side stimulus, I'll leave it at that.

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Yeah, seriously Paul.

We can just turn around these meaningless scenarios Tad gives:


1. The recession ends quickly and sustained growth returns. True CATO believers say it would have happened anyway, and in fact would have happened better without any stimulus interfering.

2. The recession ends but economic growth remains sluggish and unemployment high. True CATO believers argue that the economy recovered DESPITE the stimulus. True CATO believers also argue that the sluggish recover was because of the stimulus.

3. The recession worsens and/or turns into a depression. True CATO believers argue that the government spending caused it.

In all 3 scenarios, the True CATO believers tell us it's always better without any government.

Lather, rinse, repeat (and answer no criticism directly).

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I've heard the absolute nonsense of "opportunity cost" before. I've listened and read patiently while some very literate and intelligent people try to show me how it works. The closest anyone came to convincing me was by showing me a study that proved that the opportunity cost of building yachts added 150 jobs to a closed economy while costing 100. Call me an optimist, but that sounds like a 50 job net gain with no loss at all. I'll take that kind of "cost" every day.

Until you can show me the difference between the "invisible hand" and any other blind faith religion, I am forced to relegate your economic nonsense into the same dustbin of insanity as "intelligent design" and "Geocentric Universe"

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6 Replies

  • Tony O'Doherty 6 months ago Darwin, would it help to consider o...

  • Darwin Long 6 months ago Tony, I understand the concept of &...

  • Tony O'Doherty 6 months ago Darwin, demand is missing from your...

Darwin, would it help to consider opportunity cost it in the abstract, instead of yacht related?
In a situation where there are several opportunities and only resources enough to realize one of them it is the actual or estimated outcome form the opportunity chosen compared separately with the estimated outcome from each one of opportunities rejected. It is a decision making tool, producing a theoretical metric that is very hard to measure precisely after action has been taken – mainly because of Ike’s discovery that while planning is vital a plan is virtually useless.

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Tony, I understand the concept of "opportunity cost" in an environment where raw materials including capital and labor cannot support all of the projects proposed. However, we aren't living in that situation at present.

We have workers aplenty unemployed

We have raw materials lying in warehouses hoping for a sale

We have capital gathering dust in bank accounts

This is NOT an environment where opportunity cost is, or can be allowed to be, a factor

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Darwin, demand is missing from your list and it is a necessary ingredient of any equation. Perhaps the owners of the materials and capital visualize only overpriced and unsold inventory on their hands if they manufacture in the U.S.
Also, they could be waiting for conversion costs to approach world (or perhaps third world) levels here first.
Or many may be simply getting the timing right and see fueling the economy now as diminishing the chances of an all GOP administration and House after the election. They fear the loss of an opportunity to operate in a untrammeled “free market” unhindered by pesky regulations and whiny unions.
Either way the same basic rules apply.

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Oh yeah, I forgot about the opportunity to switch to a feudal system of governance. Now THAT is an opportunity cost I can acknowledge, if not approve of.

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"Opportunity cost" is a non-ideological concept. It's just the cost of doing one thing instead of another thing. It can be applied to all sorts of things, including sports, economics, and sitting around eating turkey all day.

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I actually understand opportunity cost quite well. One problem of many with the concept is that unless you know the future you can never actually determine the opportunity cost. In the vast majority of cases it is a factor so small as to have no significance whatsoever. It only grows in the presence of scarcity. Its a never ending game of "what if"

My biggest problem with the concept is that its used, usually in the case of government spending, as though it really means something.

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The only way government can "create jobs"--at least the permanent kind--is to hire more workers itself. All CCC-type jobs and most stimulus jobs (which usually seem to be about The Infrastructure or Energy) will expire once the work is complete. Jobs can be "created" only by encouraging existing employers to hire or by helping more people to start their own businesses. Period.

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9 Replies

  • Darwin Long 6 months ago Yes, CCC type jobs are temporary, b...

  • Paul Anderson 6 months ago Christine - That's exactly ...

  • Christine Jeffords 6 months ago I see your point, but *my* point is...

Yes, CCC type jobs are temporary, but they are jobs. They last as long as they last and during that time they provide working class stiffs with income to feed their families. While they're at it, they improve the infrastructure to make it easier for everyone else to do business when they are done. They also encourage existing businesses to hire more people because, with the payroll going out there is more demand for goods and services. As you might guess, that also encourages new business startups.

Its actually no different than a housing development. Once the houses are built, the jobs are over, but in the meantime the whole community benefits.

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Christine -

That's exactly right. These jobs aren't meant to be permanent. Liberals do not wish to bankrupt the government with long term policies that exist beyond their use. We simply want to stimulate demand over the short term.

Conservatives believe that supply-side tax cuts are useful in every situation imaginable. But you'll never hear a liberal argue for a CCC program during full employment (or anything close to full employment). That would be idiotic.

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I see your point, but *my* point is that what Americans want and need is dependable *permanent* employment. Bills don't stop existing because your job does, whether it's a "stimulus" job or not. Therefore government must pursue policies which encourage big-time employers to create jobs, or must make it easier for people to start small businesses of their own.

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Christine, dependable employment comes from jobs that don't change. Things like sales jobs, or factory floor jobs were permanent up until the digital revolution. Then they changed and while some people were able to change with them, others were not.

I am a computer consultant. My business has been pretty constant over the last 20 years except for the changes in operating systems. I've had to run as fast as I can to keep up. And now there is another paradyme shift starting. We're going from local data storage to online data storage and from local data manipulation to "cloud computing" and its being driven by the "smart phone"

My point here is that permanent, dependable employment is somewhat a thing of the past. (cont.)

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"Dependable employment comes from jobs that don't change." Exactly my point! But how do such jobs get created? By (1) corporations hiring more people (and not downsizing or outsourcing to India), or (2) ordinary joes like you and me starting our own businesses. #2 takes pots of money, ideally a loan or grant from the government (banks won't, not with things as they are now); #1 takes a stable economy and maybe some government urging. And *that* is what I think Washington should be working on, not "stimulus."

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(cont.)
With just a very few exceptions, there are no more jobs that you can start at 20 and work at until you retire. The world changes more quickly than that. I can see why you would want them, but I can't see a way to create them.

Factories that turn out manufactured goods will automate, Mines will (and should) automate, Clerical work is becoming more automated every day (that's me doing that) and even auto mechanics now have to be computer technicians. The world of my father, who worked in a machine shop for 45 years, is gone. I seriously doubt the wisdom of trying to retrieve it.

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Christine, as an independent business for the last 30 years, I have to disagree with you on #2. I've restarted my business 4 times in the last 30 years because I've either made fatal mistakes or I've changed locations. The most I've ever spent was in the current incarnation. It cost me just under 5K to open a retail computer store. I borrowed the money from my friends and family and it was repaid within 6 months. All it takes to start a business is a vision and a drive to succeed. Everything else can be negotiated.

As for #1, when the tax codes are changed to not reward companies for outsourcing or offshoring, and the economy starts to grow again because of some stimulus, that will just happen on its own.

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I agree with you absolutely on #1. We do need to change tax codes (and other regulations) as you describe. But as for #2...$5K? That's more money than I've ever seen in my life. And what if a person doesn't *have* friends and family to borrow from? Must good ideas go to waste based upon the connections (or lack) of the person who has them? It used to be (speaking of your father's day) that a young man could start out as a peddler with $60 worth of goods and end his life as the owner of a department store. Many did. People can't do that now, not on their own. So they need government to help them, exactly as (so we keep hearing) they need government to help them pay for their health care.

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Christine, you're absolutely right about connections. What you don't seem to understand is how easy it is to make them. That young man with 60 bucks in dry goods still needed connections to get anywhere, and where did he get the 60 bucks? That was a lot of money in my father's day - about equivalent to 5K 10 years ago.

Christine, if you have a good idea for a business I suggest you go to your local Chamber of Commerce and attend a few of their networking meetings. You'll be amazed at how quickly you will gain support. Everybody is always looking for "the next big thing". I started my first business with 25 bucks and an idea. I used the 25 bucks to print some handbills and passed them out myself. A week later I had 3 customers. A month after that I had 25.

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The Depression of 1920-21 and the solutions the administration at the time enacted may well have led to the Great Depression in 1929. That decade in general was marked by inequality, with the upper classes enjoying the prosperity the author of the article mentioned (the 'Roaring Twenties') while poor farmers, city dwellers, and WWI veterans suffered. The government got out of the Great Depression by spending money--when they stopped spending for a period in the '30s, the economy almost immediately tanked and only fully recovered after the enormous government spending on World War II.

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Both debaters here make incredibly weak arguments. Both build their arguments on two pillars: an appeal to reason, and citation of a cherry-picked authority or two. Neither is particularly meaningful for such a complex problem. Do we ask individuals to debate whether it is reasonable to believe that smoking causes cancer? Or discuss the positions of a couple of random doctors? No! We inquire as to the consensus view of the mass of experts on the problem. So what do economists, as a group, think? Is there any more sensible strategy than following their majority opinions? There are plenty of large-scale surveys, e.g. the National Association of Business Economics http://www.nabe.com/publib/pol/11/08/index.html .

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Tad, how is it that government debt and spending in this recession is siphoning off resources that would have been used for private sector use?

The Fed already bought US treasuries to inject money into the economy for private use, all the way to making interest rates practically zero. The government borrowing would take money out, looked at in a vacuum, except that this gives the Fed room to buy those newly issued treasuries and cause no net effect. So all you get is the same practically free money for the private sector that it wants, except with the additional aggregate demand from that spending.

So that's the capital side. That leaves the labor side of it. And it's pretty obvious that there is not shortage of labor.

Crowding out just doesn't apply here.

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3 Replies

  • Tim Martinez 6 months ago Also, in what respect are businesse...

  • Tim Martinez 6 months ago Finally, you have glossed over the ...

  • Paul Anderson 6 months ago Tim - it's funny that everythi...

Also, in what respect are businesses worried about future tax increases?

Businesses hire and expand when there is sufficient demand for what they are selling. So their main concern is with how many customers are coming in. That is concern about demand, which is basically a question about the direction of the economy. We can be pretty sure they will hire and expand if it is warranted by demand, since no doing so would be forgoing profit.

So the issue isn't about taxes. The more accurate debate description should be about what policies help or hurt in creating sufficient demand to move us closer to full employment. Cutting spending will hurt, not help. And we certainly can have full employment while paying down debt in the future, since it's not a zero sum game between taxes and demand.

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Finally, you have glossed over the reasons the economy was fine after government stopped spending after WW2. The reason is that people had money at that time. They had been forced to save money (as they worked for the government creating war materials), encouraged to conserve, faced shortages of the goods they wanted. Everything was needed for the war effort. It was guns or butter. It was true crowding out.

When the war was over, there were plenty of people with saved money who wanted things from the economy, so there was easily enough demand to give us full employment. It wasn't simply cutting of government spending that created those jobs. It required the pent up demand.

Today, consumers don't have that savings. They are tapped out. This is like pre-WW2, consumers with no money.

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Tim - it's funny that everything you just said was mainstream until about 2008. It was almost common sense.

The one legitimate argument I've heard against demand-side stimulus is that it gets diverted toward debt (credit cards, under-water mortgages, student loans, etc). This is why financial collapses are so disastrous. With the credit markets in ruin and the buildup of debt, efforts to stimulate demand are less effective.

Still..."less effective" is better than allowing the status quo to persist...

With regard to the uncertainty canard - the GOP is being disingenuous. One example - they slashed the discretionary spending budget and cut regulatory agency employment. This leads to additional red tape and project delays for firms as understaffed agencies attempt to deal with work loads.

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James: Your question is a complete non-sequitur, but I'll answer any way. Health care costs have increased in part because of America's unhealthy lifestyles that contribute to high chronic disease rates (163 million cases in 2003, at a total cost of $1.3 trillion, according to Milken Institute). You should focus your ire on the sources of poor health, not Medicare, if you really want to bend the national cost curve on health care. As for education, naturally, since education is a positional good, we will have rising costs in an age of growing inequality. In any case, what, exactly, does Harvard tuition have to do with government "cartelization?"

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2 Replies

  • James E. Miller 6 months ago Government licensing and accreditat...

  • Paul Anderson 6 months ago What's your beef against accre...

Government licensing and accreditation for university personnel and universities themselves are cartel producing policies. I should have been more clear on that I admit. You left out the fact that student loans are practically guaranteed by the government which of course drives up costs as well.

While I agree poor health is a factor in high health care costs, the true source of increasing costs is not enough competition in the market place since the industry is overly regulated by government licensing and accreditation, much like the education industry.

How exactly is education is positional good? How is it different from any other service?

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What's your beef against accreditation? I've found that accredited schools range from poor to excellent. Unaccredited schools? I won't address those. Don't want to offend any Liberty University folks. And I like Burger King. They have a fine Academy.

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One of Tad's overarching theories, echoed by James in the comments, is that government spending always undermines the economy, either by "siphoning off" resources from more productive to less productive uses, or by crowding out more efficient private markets. This is not even good theory let alone history. It's untrue, of course, for any number of classic public goods, from national defense to public health. But the real blind-spot here is the importance of public investment for innovation, productivity, and economic growth. Public investments in research, education, and health were large factors in 20th-century productivity growth and, with that, in rising living standards. It is absolute folly to deny that government spending is, in many cases, a significant form of investment.

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5 Replies

  • James E. Miller 6 months ago "Public investments in researc...

  • James E. Miller 6 months ago And how is government siphoning off...

  • Paul Anderson 6 months ago Healthcare costs are going up for a...

"Public investments in research, education, and health were large factors in 20th century productivity growth."

Please explain then Lew why health care and education costs continue to go up well past the rate of inflation despite the economic downturn. It certainly has nothing to do with the government cartelizing the industries and thereby reducing the supply of laborers to perform said services right? It has nothing to do with the implicit guarantee of funding via the federal government for student loans or medical treatment with the entitlement programs right?

Also please, please address the Depression of 1920-1921 where spending and taxes were cut and a big portion of the debt was paid off yet the economy boomed.

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And how is government siphoning off resources from the more productive private sector not a sound theory? Where does government get scarce labor and resources to perform its functions? Wonderland? The Twilight Zone?

Also, please explain how an institution that doesn't operate under the constraints of having to maintain profitability and receives its funding through the direct threat of imprisonment must spend its money more prudently than the private sector which only earns income through the voluntary purchases of consumers.

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Healthcare costs are going up for a variety of reasons that are independent of the recession...

Most western societies have universal healthcare that's guaranteed in some way, shape, or form by the government. They aren't experiencing the cost growth that we're experiencing. I find it rather odd that you're claim that the American system is experiencing cost growth because of an implicit guarantee of funding by the government. What guarantee? There isn't one, and there won't be until 2014. And even then, the guarantee is relatively modest compared to other countries with much lower costs.

The 1920s boom (or "bubble", as most people call it):

US factories ramped up production capacity during WW1. With Europe in ruins, the US tapped into new markets and achieved huge gains.


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Those countries may not be facing cost increases but they often see longer wait time for treatments.

Um, so Medicare and Medicaid don't guarantee the government pays for treatment? What about laws stipulating that emergency rooms must treat those without insurance?

For the boom, yes, U.S. factories increased production. But all I ever hear is how cuts in government spending will derail the recovery. How did the cuts occur and yet a boom followed? If you haven't looked, manufacturing is back up to the same rate it was prior to the current downturn:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/293162-u-s-manufacturing-profits-set-new-record-in-q2

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Find me a country in the world that's not a third world hole that doesn't require treatment at emergency rooms.......are you claiming that we shouldn't require treatment at emergency rooms?

Please elaborate on that. How should unconscious people negotiate on the free market for healthcare? Perhaps they can use the same exchanges that Paul Ryan wants' barely lucid elderly people to use.

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It is interesting that Mr Dehaven would suggest policies of the single voted worst president in history. Hardin was profoundly corrupt. His policies were not the cause of the upturn: 1) economic growth was already occurring before he came to office, 2) the tax base actually expanded during his tenure despite the tax cuts, 3) he promoted disarmament. It never cease to amaze how these folks trot out falsity, and selective facts, to support their old tired ideology. Of the above 1 & 2 are not now occurring, and 3 is not acceptable to conservatives. Spending is the only way out of the economic mess we are in presently. Increase demand for goods and services by a fair tax policy and put people back to work.

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4 Replies

  • James E. Miller 6 months ago What is saving but just delayed con...

  • Paul Anderson 6 months ago "why didn't they stop it&...

  • James E. Miller 6 months ago While I agree that the tax cuts upp...

What is saving but just delayed consumption? Where does the capital come from for high tier production and long term investment if everyone just spends like mad?

Hardin was corrupt but he let market clear itself for the economy to recover; of which neither Hoover, Roosevelt, Bush, or Obama did (all 4 are corrupt as well but so is every president). It is true economic growth was occurring when he came into office but Wilson followed much of the same policies at the end of WWI that Harding just continued.

If Harding's policies were not the cause of the upturn, then why didn't they stop it? All he did was follow Wilson's lead in cutting taxes and expenditures.

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"why didn't they stop it"?

Unlike conservatives, liberals generally don't typically argue that supply side policies cause ruin. Take the Bush tax cuts, for example. They didn't accomplish much of anything. They provided some limited stimulus. But they didn't hurt anything! I guess they upped the long term deficit. And they upped income inequality over the long term...that's a bad thing generally for society. But they didn't ruin the economy.

Nor would I claim that Harding's tax cuts led to ruin. They led to a bit more inequality. But growing inequality doesn't always correlate with a lack of economic growth.

RE: the 20s boom: the US watched many of its major economic competitors destroy their countries. The US homeland was unscaved. This created many opportunities

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While I agree that the tax cuts upped the deficit, that was a problem of not cutting spending.

Alright another serious question: if corporations and the wealth only earn their profits from providing goods and services to consenting consumers, what is the problem with inequality? If the transactions of others make someone wealthy (and benefit the others by the very fact that they are better off after the transaction or they wouldn't have engaged in it in the first place), what business is of it of anyone else?

I know this is kind of complex question but I ask it in all seriousness not to you but to everyone. Just because envy arises toward those who have more, does that really necessitate action on the part of the government?

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While the urge to "correct" income inequality is sometimes driven by class jealousy, it's mostly driven by economics and political science. In other words: rich people should want less income inequality.

1. Economics: Nations with healthy (or growing) middle classes tend to succeed over the long run. Nations with receding middle classes tend to fall to the wayside. Without a healthy consumer class, our consumption-driven economy falls apart...this is particularly true in the US. We're not manufacturers anymore...we can't count on demand for our products in other countries..

2. Politics: Income inequality causes political unrest as the poor begin to turn against the wealthy. It's illiberal. Political power is concentrated with a small fringe of wealthy people and interests...

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Point in this article I agree with: The deficit spending is the band-aid on the gross fracture in our economy. Point to make: The tax system is a great place to start. It has become increasingly obsolete as applied to our technology driven economy. The internet, use of bartering websites and development of interest specific networks allows people to utilize underground and shadow economies, bartering for goods and services. Eliminating the need for money and removing it's significance as ultimate manifest of wealth. Employers can be inclined to hire off the books, pay per project as individuals solicit their services, albeit legal or illegal through internet contacts, in theory reaching a global audience. In cyberspace, free competition lives and nobody can hear you scream.

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Why not look at what worked in a more recent recession? In FY 1981 we set a post WW II record for spending as a % of GDP. We set a new record in FY 1982 and an even higher record in FY 1983. We did not stop setting spending records until ALL of the 2.7 million lost private sector jobs were recovered. It worked.

By contrast, we set a new spending record in FY 2009, President Bush's last budget year. Then, despite ARRA stimulus spending we actually cut spending in FY 2010, well before the economy had recovered the 8.8 million lost private sector jobs. The recovery faltered. This is not a failure of Keynesian economics. It is a failure to practice Keynesian economics.

In practice, President Reagan was a bigger practitioner of Keynesian economics than President Obama.

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While in past economic downturns the discussion presented here would have merit, that is not the case today. Business needs confidence. Confidence that there will be demand for their product or service. The only way this confidence will be instilled is for the government to make a decision and do something. Sad to say, this will not happen given the current hyper-partisan extremes being taken. Political moderates on both sides need to take control, or perhaps we can break the mindset that voting for a non-partisan candidate is a wasted vote and start electing true non-partisans, people who are capable of doing what is best for this country rather than for their own political careers, to all levels of government.

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I have to agree on some of your points; however, I cannot completely agree.
Take for instance your following comment.
"Take for example, the "Not-So-Great Depression" of 1920-21...Instead of resorting to deficit spending to "stimulate" the economy, taxes and government spending were cut. The economy took off."
This is misleading. It absolutely did take off but the "take off" led to disastrous consequences, namely the Great Depression. Deregulation and deficit spending done in moderation works. The key is moderation something we as a people seem to lack in all aspects of our lives.

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5 Replies

  • James E. Miller 6 months ago Wrong, what lead to the Great Depre...

  • Monique Bakken 6 months ago So says Paul Johnson who is very di...

  • James E. Miller 6 months ago Milton Friedman essentially said th...

Wrong, what lead to the Great Depression was the inflationary policy by the Federal Reserve and the stock market bubble it created that was masked by increased productivity which kept prices stable. The policy began in the latter half of the 20's, not the beginning. Distinguished historian Paul Johnson backs up this account.

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So says Paul Johnson who is very distinguished and especially conservative. Do you know of any moderates who feel the same way? Honest question not condescending.

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Milton Friedman essentially said the same thing a few years prior to his death. I don't know if you would classify him as a moderate though. What exactly is your definition of a moderate?

To see proof of this assertion however, I suggest taking a look at economist Murray Rothbard's account:
http://mises.org/daily/5577/The-Lure-of-a-Stable-Price-Level

Rothbard is anything but a moderate (he was anarchist), but his work is incredibly thorough and littered with footnotes and data. I would suggest his whole book "America's Great Depression" though it is a rather long read and boring at times because of the large amount of data.

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Milton Friedman would be my idea of a moderate with conservative tendencies :). However I do agree with him, had the government implemented better monetary policy instead of either cutting taxes or spending through the roof, the Great Depression would have remained a recession. Which lends to my point that moderation is the key. There has to be an equal balance.

Thanks for the article and book recommendation.

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No problem but I think you are confusing monetary policy with fiscal. Tax cuts and government spending are fiscal while central bank injections of money and interest rate manipulation are monetary policy. Sorry to nitpick but this is an important distinction to make.

I understand the desire for moderation in policy, but I regard the federal government spending $4 trillion a year which taken out of the private sector (despite what our friend Paul thinks below) to be a radical spending policy. What would be moderate is actually curbing the amount of money by the federal government, not slowing down its growth.

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"How many private-sector jobs were lost or not created in the first place because of the resources diverted to the government for its job creation?"

Seriously? What are the economics behind this statement? The government borrowed money at a low interest rate in order to finance the stimulus. Much of the money went to help states avoid tax increases or public employee layoffs. Did the government crowd out spending for private sector teachers? Did they crowd out private sector fire departments? Private sector road building?

It's important to point out that your analysis flies in the face of probably 90% of economists. This is a radical article. It's not one side of the coin. It's the edge of the coin.

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11 Replies

  • James E. Miller 6 months ago Are you kidding Paul? How about add...

  • James E. Miller 6 months ago Should have said "pay off a la...

  • Paul Anderson 6 months ago OK.....so you're saying that t...

Are you kidding Paul? How about addressing my questions to you in the "automatic cuts" article?

Just because the government borrows at extremely low interest rates doesn't mean government creates a free lunch. We live in a world of scarce resources, capital, and labor which the government siphons off from the private sector every time it spends. Those suppressed interest rates from the Fed are inflationary and drive speculative bubbles.

And how about addressing the Depression of 1920-1921. How did the government cut expenditures, pay off a large portion of the deficit, and cut taxes and the economy boomed?

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Should have said "pay off a large portion of the debt," my bad.

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OK.....so you're saying that the Fed is driving a speculative bubble right now? Are you saying that the Fed is creating an overheated economy with low interest rates? And therefore, we should increase interest rates? Really?

Low interest rates can help inflate (or maintain) bubbles. This was certainly the case in the 2000s. But situations differ. Just as I would rarely advocate for demand-side stimulus (it's a tool of last resort), I would also rarely advocate for super-low interest rates.

We need a bit of inflation. Interest rates should stay low...

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Um, yes I am. If you really look at the data, there are plenty of indexes that show overall growth. Meanwhile, the M2 money supply is growing at a 15% annual rate.

Artificially low interest rates ARE INFLATION. How do they stay low without the Fed intervening in the market? Of course Bernanke could sterilize his purchases but he isn't as of right now. Look at the Fed's data of money supply growth.

Let me ask you a serious question Paul. Once inflation is conducted and the new money enters the economy completely, what is the point of the policy when prices and wages finally adjust and everything is equal in "real" terms as before?

Don't you recognize that new money enters the economy in different sectors, thus boosting those sectors first?

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Also the Fed caused the recent commodity bubble and is keeping the stock market afloat with its constant QE policies (again, in order to keep interest rates low, the Fed has to print in order to buy treasuries):
http://mises.org/daily/5757

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The commodity bubble is caused by misinformed fools who are purchasing gold based on the idea that the government is going to default...

But if you look at the 10 year yield on the t-bill, no one thinks that this is going to happen...investors are NOT betting that the US will experience massive inflation.

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Low interest rates ARE NOT inflation. Money supply IS NOT inflation. Inflation is inflation.

Say the economy is just you and I, and I have $10. I loan you $2 since you have none. You give me $2 to mow your lawn. I give you $2 to cook me some dinner. Great, it works, we got what we want.

Now what if you're worried about the economy so you cut back, stop buying. That means I lose my income too. We're unemployed now. So Fed buys the $20 treasuries I had, so now I have $30 on hand. I have more excess money than I want, so offer you a lower interest loan. You see it as good value and take it and begin buying again. I now have an income and buy also. Now you have an income.

Money supply increased to promote economic activity to make use of unused labor. Nothing bad about that.

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There is so much wrong with this I suggest you do some more research, but I'll try to be brief.
You give a friend the $10 to hold. This friend lends me $2 out of your $10. Where there was once $10 there is now $12, increasing the money supply by 20 per cent. The long term result being that the amount of goods which your original $10 represented now is represented by $12. Inflation.

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Richard, you can give me a billion dollars in the example. It doesn't matter if it's not spent. Inflation is about spending (demand) relative to supply.

We can create inflation even without changing the money supply.

I want more stuff and start trying to buy many things from you, more than you can produce, and you do likewise with me because each purchase of mine makes your income go up. Instead of exchanging $2 a day each way, we exchange $2 many times each day, so perhaps total activity per day has increased fifty times. That's $200 of activity from $10 in existence ($2 loaned).

This occurs until we start saying "I'm tired and worked all day so I won't do all those tasks for $2 each. I want $3." THAT is inflation.

The money supply had nothing to do with that.

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I note we moved on from the initial example, but no matter.

Both examples continue to be flawed.

And...both examples include spending money...

In other words, what exactly is your point?

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Huh? What is your point? What examples are flawed? How so?

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