Why the Death Penalty Isn't the Problem @PolicyMic | Andrew Hanson

Why the Death Penalty Isn't the Problem

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In 1991, Troy Davis was convicted of murdering an off-duty police officer and sentenced to death by the state of Georgia. In the years following, many of the witnesses whose testimony led to the conviction of Mr. Davis recanted their version of events. Davis' case moved through the appellate court system throughout the past 20 years until he was executed by the state of Georgia Wednesday evening.

A public outcry, based on the recantations, arose over the execution of Davis by those who seek to abolish the death penalty. PolicyMic pundit Evan Mascagni recently highlighted a few of their arguments, including: (1) capital punishment costs more than life imprisonment; (2) our enemies use capital punishment, while our allies have abolished it; (3) capital punishment disproportionately affects black convicts. Other abolitionists argue that many innocent people have been killed as a result of it. Mascagni concludes: "I have a hard time understanding why the majority of Americans still support the death penalty. Maybe they are simply uneducated about the real effects of this cruel and barbaric form of punishment (or maybe they have a fetish for vengeance)."

I don't think Mascagni is doing its proponents’ arguments justice, nor do I find his arguments against the death penalty convincing. To see why, consider this: on the same day, white supremacist Lawrence Russell Brewer was executed by Texas. Brewer was convicted in the infamous dragging case, in which James Byrd, a black man from East Texas, was tied to the bumper of a truck by Brewer and two friends, and dragged for 3 miles. At the end, what was left of Byrd's shredded remains was dumped between a black church and a nearby cemetery. As far as I know, there was no public outcry by death penalty abolitionists over Brewer’s execution. That may be because many of the criticisms that abolitionists levy against the death penalty are not about the death penalty itself, but the moral difficulties involved in punishment and the justice system in general, which can be further examined during a masters of social work.  

But let us consider Mascagni’s arguments anyway. First, the death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment without parole, not because of the cost of lethal injection, but because their appeals are prioritized in the appellate system. In my view, this counts in favor of capital punishment — the justice system works harder in capital punishment cases than elsewhere. But even if it did not, we should not decide what constitutes a just punishment based on how expensive the punishment is alone.

Second, while many other nations have banned capital punishment, it does not mean we should do the same. Morality is about more than going along with the crowd.

Third, it is true that death row inmates are disproportionately black and that many convicts, in the past, have been proven innocent. But is this a problem with the form of punishment, or the justice system’s effectiveness at convicting guilty parties? Black Americans are not just overrepresented as death row inmates. They are overrepresented in the entire criminal justice system. Is not it also grossly unjust for innocent convicts to be sentenced to be confined to a cell for life and, in many cases, beaten and raped on a regular basis? Is this not just as cruel and unusual as a lethal injection? 

The imperfections in the criminal justice system raise serious questions about the permissibility of punishment, but most abolitionists are not arguing for eliminating the justice system altogether. Instead, we should take these criticisms seriously and work to improve the system as best we can. When new evidence arises, we should reexamine it along with the other facts of the case and avoid making hasty decisions. Other reforms should be on the table as well. However, we should recognize that the likelihood that the justice system will be perfect is quite small. This means that the injustice of an innocent person being convicted won’t go away any time soon. 

At least until Minority Report becomes reality.

Photo Credit: World Coalition Against the Death Penalty

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Andrew Hanson

Economic researcher/blogger with an interest in issues related to education and inequality. Teach For America alum. Studied philosophy as an unde...

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I believe poverty is the principal cause of disproportionate convictions and death penalties in minority communities, much less so discriminatory judges and juries . Until we find a way to fight poverty more effectively, crime will continue to cause out-sized representation from these groups.

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Legal and ethical issues and costs are among the chief reasons for the decline in the capital punishment. It is not as likely that people will face the death penalty now. (See http://www.newsytype.com/13999-executions-death-sentences/ for more info)

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Your article makes a good point in that much of the problem lies in the justice system, but this does not make advocating for an end to the death penalty any less important to upholding the rights of the accused, particularly when there is a high risk, as in Troy Davis, where the accused was innocent. And I think its hard because you get caught on two sides of such a morally driven issue...what do you think of sentencing guidelines that prohibit imposing the death penalty if there is no physical evidence linking the defendant to the crime scene? Or any higher standard than a mere jury's determination of guilt of a defendant, a lot of times, which is a result of witness testimony or witness identification, which can be very unreliable?

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1 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Great question, Manal. Your specifi...

Great question, Manal. Your specific prescription might be too strong. The specific reform ideas I had in mind are ensuring adequate defense by paying public defenders more, instructing jurors about the reliability of eyewitness testimony and further developing witness identification techniques, and allowing newly discovered evidence to be presented after conviction.

One of the central things I've tried to communicate is that, if an innocent person is convicted of murder, it's also REALLY TERRIBLE if they spend life in prison without parole. The problem is innocent people being convicted, which is a separate question from whether the death penalty is just.

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While I appreciate this whole article you sold me with: "Morality is about more than going along with the crowd." So true, I'm glad someone is seeing this about the Troy Davis and not jumping on the band wagon.

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3 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Thanks, Jeff! ...

  • Michael Nebab 5 months ago Ya know, I can't help but noti...

  • Jeff Raines 5 months ago There is nothing wrong with being p...

Thanks, Jeff!

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Ya know, I can't help but notice how childish it is to not accept something because you don't want to be on a "bandwagon" -- i.e., to not accept something unlike so many others simply for the sake of...wow, not accepting something to be unlike so many others.

This isn't about sports teams or pop songs or Twilight. This is about the death penalty -- about the legitimacy of anyone claiming he or she can have the right to end somebody else's life. It's also about the inability for people to rationally accept the real possibilities that verdicts can be misguided and convictions can ultimately be wrong.

I'm not pro-abortion 'cus "it's the cool thing to do" and "it's what liberals do". I happen to find logical sense in this "bandwagon".

Logic

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There is nothing wrong with being pro-abortion or anti-death penalty because it is what you believe, no matter the number of people that support/disagree with you. Jumping on the bandwagon means that you are supporting these sides without really knowing/understand the issues or seeing the whole picture. Bandwagon fans support something because of its popularity and because of positive media portrayals, not because of analysis of the issue at hand. You're right this is too serious of an issue to be a bandwagon follower of, it's literally a matter of life or death and that is why I'm saying there should not be a bandwagon for this policy issue, because the issue is too important to support (or not support) with such degrees of frivolity.

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I agree with pretty much every thing in this article. I made a comment in one of the other articles that I support the death penalty, but think that there should be a moratorium while we clean up the justice system. One of the big issues that you point out is that Black Americans are over-represented in the whole criminal system. There is a racial dynamic to our justice system that needs to be addressed, but that is not a fault of the death penalty. It also frustrates me when the hardcore advocates against the death penalty don't raise hell for every execution. The fight should not just be about the ones who may be innocent, but also the ones who are guilty but still facing execution. If you are against it, be against it for everyone.

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1 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Great comment, Michael! I agree com...

Great comment, Michael! I agree completely.

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Allow me to be idealistic for a second:

Andrew, you mentioned the execution of James Byrd. I don't know what he felt when he was executed; I don't know if he was remorseful, but assuming he wasn't, then what has his death accomplished? Assuming that religion's got it all wrong and "Allahu [isn't so] Akbar" (I pray, no pun intended, you're cultured enough to understand my joke), then our world's most unabashedly unashamed sinners go lights out for a painless eternity -- no heaven, but logically no hell either. In short, they get away with whatever. Instead of killing these people, shouldn't we work to make the PENAL system live up to its name and give an honest attempt at rehabilitating these people -- non-violently inspiring remorse...?

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3 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Absolutely. But I'm just not s...

  • Michael Nebab 5 months ago Oops with the name mix up. So embar...

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago It seems like you're contendin...

Absolutely. But I'm just not so idealistic to believe that will always be the case. I also think that people do deserve punishment in many cases, so punishing them is an end in itself. But, in general, I agree with you that rehabilitation is the right way to go.

James Byrd was the victim, just to clarify.

If the killer, Lawrence Russell Brewer, could not be rehabilitated, then his death accomplished two things: it gave him a punishment he deserved humanely—there was no unnecessary pain associated with his death—and it serves as a deterrent to Brewer and to other white supremacists.

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Oops with the name mix up. So embarrassing.

And yet death wouldn't be much of a deterrent for killers like Brewer who see the glory and reward of the act far outweighing the "punishment" of death should they be caught -- I put "punishment" in quotations because, again, vicious murderers for instance certainly don't kill out of fear of dying.

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It seems like you're contending that because vicious murderers are aware of the punishment they'll receive after committing a murder, death is not a "punishment." That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I'd be interested to hear what you mean by punishment or what you think the death penalty is, if it's not a punishment.

I also think you're missing the fact that murdering someone involves risk; the killer typically doesn't believe he will be caught.

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...Andrew, you're smart...and I'm happy you mentioned Minority Report (such a beautiful movie that maybe needed just a LIIIttle more action)...but I have to say that your second point mid-piece, that "Morality is about more than going along with the crowd" is akin to saying ", is incredibly weak.

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43 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago I'm not sure I understand. Cou...

  • Michael Nebab 5 months ago Should have edited -- please omit &...

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Do you have an actual criticism or ...

I'm not sure I understand. Could you clarify your comment? For example, do you think morality can be determined by a vote?

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Should have edited -- please omit "akin to saying ',"

It's weak precisely for the same reason you felt compelled to ask me for further clarification. Your morality comment has an inherent inadequacy simply due to its rhetorical, kind of idealistic nature, particularly as it stands without any kind of reasoning. (You write that comment and then suddenly move on to your third point without addressing your reasoning behind said comment). I purposely replied without an explanation to provoke your need for clarification -- and thereby emphasize my point.

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Do you have an actual criticism or are you content in saying "it's weak"? I would contend that the criticism "it's weak" is itself weak sauce.

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...Actually if you read it carefully, I wasn't just saying it was weak. I said it was weak because you didn't address your reasoning behind the comment...

=D

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How am I supposed to address your reasoning if you intentionally leave it out? "I purposely replied without an explanation to provoke your need for clarification -- and thereby emphasize my point."

In your view, were slavery and segregation justified because they were enacted by a consensus majority? In my view, they quite obviously weren't.

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But to entertain your example (regarding "voting"), Morality can indeed be determined by vote -- from a certain point of view. Why not? After all, take New York for instance: a majority of our reps saw Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusettes, New Hampshire, Vermont and DC (I know its not a state) do it...

...and said, "Hell, maybe we should let boys marry boys in this state, too!"

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...yeah, true. It was moral for the U.S. back then *shrugs*. It's not moral (for most of us now) -- 'cus most of us have agreed on that and it has shown in everything this country has done to put blacks and whites on even footings, especially during the Civil Rights era and .

People change (or at least in history, people have demonstrated that they are capable of change -- and of going in circles) -- what was moral back then doesn't have to be moral in our eyes now. Was stuff back then right or wrong? Who knows. Heck, we can't even be a hundred percent sure of whether things were or were not...

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Oh, sweetie, if I could draw you a picture I would.

1) You wrote your morality point in your article.
2) You didn't back it up
3) Long story short, I pointed out that you didn't back it up and thereby rendered your morality point it weak.
3.5) You got confused.
4) To address your comment "Do you have an actual criticism or are you content in saying "it's weak"? I would contend that the criticism "it's weak" is itself weak sauce.": I tried to reiterate (3) more clearly.
5) I wasn't asking you to address MY comment. I was pointing out how you didn't address "Morality is about more than going along with the crowd."

You're making my day and it's only 11:17 am here, dude.

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Michael, let's avoid using patronizing terms like "sweetie" and demeaning tones. I've tried to be respectful in my commentary and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

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Now that you've spelled out your view, I see where we disagree. You are a moral relativist. I am not. I think slavery and segregation were just as wrong when they were being practiced as they are now.

As far as your list of events goes, I don't think you were being as clear about your view as you intended. I'm not a mind reader. I see moral relativism as obviously false, and, because space is limited, I couldn't get into it in the piece.

Next time someone asks you to spell out or clarify your view, instead of acting like the other person is stupid, just do it. I don't think it's too much to ask.

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By the way, the majority of Americans support the death penalty, so, in your view, it seems like the right thing to do. It's also supported by 60% of Europeans.

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Actually my personal view is that the death penalty is flawed and somewhat immoral. What you're alluding to is a moral perspective of a bunch of people. There's a difference between a big ol' group and the single speck within that populace that is -- me.

And by bringing up those wonderful statistics, you kind of bolster my earlier point regarding how a society or culture's norms are dictated by the general direction of the group of people in question. By the will of most of the people in this country, the death penalty is generally an acceptable form of punishment. VvvvOted.

...So yeah, I really don't get why you're posting those statistics.

(...Andrew, I think you're one of those people who argues for the sake of arguing).

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I posted the statistics because your said morality is determined by a majority vote, so you should believe the death penalty is moral:

"Morality can indeed be determined by vote -- from a certain point of view. Why not?"

"People change (or at least in history, people have demonstrated that they are capable of change -- and of going in circles) -- what was moral back then doesn't have to be moral in our eyes now. Was stuff back then right or wrong? Who knows."

I'm not arguing for the sake of argument; I actually believe everything I've written and am just defending the piece I wrote.

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I hope I am not intruding on a dialog and I do not want to derail it.
I would like to ask Andrew if he can direct me to the book of absolute morality.

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Phil, are you suggesting that because there's no book on absolute morality that it is necessarily subjective? If so, why even contribute to a site like PolicyMic?

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Andrew, in answer to your first question, no, that is not what I'm suggesting. I am wondering if morality is not relative, then is it absolute? Is it then findable? And where?
I don't see the relevance of your second question. Not everything is discussable only in moralistic terms.

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@Phil I don't think so. You appear to be thinking about moral truths as scientific truths that are discoverable. Morality is within us, not out in the world. As rational beings, we can resolve moral disagreements through argument. I think there are better and worse arguments for moral claims.

Morality consists of claims about how the world *should* be and how people *should* behave. This is what public policy is all about. The world has moral problems: people unjustly being executed, hunger, illiteracy, rights violations, etc. Public policy is largely about how to address those problems in the most effective way. If you think that all arguments are equally sound, and just about how people feel at the time, PolicyMic has no point.

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Andrew, no, I just wondered if you were thinking about moral truths in those terms. I perhaps mistakenly thought that your opposition to moral relativism indicated a preference for moral absolutism. If so, and if morals are absolute, then aren't they discoverable?
From where did you get the knowledge that public policy is all about morality? I totally disagree with such a concept and would therefore like to know where it comes from. My belief is that public policy should only be concerned with the practical every day workings of a political body.

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Morality is within us, so it's not discoverable in the sense that you seem to be thinking. But we can examine arguments for moral claims and come to agreements based shared assumptions about morality that we all believe to be true. This is how moral progress is made. Another way to think about objectivity is intersubjective validity.

The Basic Structure of society is based on justice or just laws. Justice is a moral concept. This isn't anything radical. I'm not sure what your concept of morality or ethics is. Are you just restricting it to religion? Spell out your view about the difference between morality and public policy a bit more. For example, why do we have laws against murder and slavery? Why do we protect human rights?

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Andrew, was I mistaken that you are not a moral relativist? I thought you actually said so. I'll answer your questions if you'll answer mine.
You mention "assumptions" about morality that we all believe to be true. Could you mention more than three?
How have you determined that the Basic Structure of society in based on justice or just laws?
Would you not accept a statement that legislation only forbids (and therefore punishes) acts that would be the ultimate destroyer of peaceful coexistence? That is, if murder were not punishable, peaceful coexistence would be impossible.

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I'll expand a bit more. The Declaration of Independence states that we are born with inalienable rights. And that the purpose of government is to secure those rights. I believe that. If someone wishes to call that a moral statement, I won't argue against that characterization.
Apart from that classical liberal statement. I think that I, above, stated my belief about the foundation behind the Basic Structure of society. Peaceful coexistence.
The ball is in your court.

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Yes, you were mistaken. I was initially challenging Michael's relativism. When I say "all", I don't literally mean every single person who is alive or who has existed, but those involved in the discussion, e.g., you and I. Yes, I can mention more than three.

I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear on this, but I am not saying that I have determined the Basic Structure of society is, in fact, just. (I don't think it is.) I mean to say that people writing laws and creating the Basic Structure wanted it to be just and should want it to be just.

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Personally, I don't believe in innate or God-given rights, but I do believe that society does and should grant individuals inalienable rights. In general, I think societies should create a Basic Structure that is fair and makes everyone better off in the aggregate. "Peaceful coexistence" is kind of a vague term, but I definitely support it depending on what you mean.

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Andrew, how to proceed? You say, "I don't believe in innate or God-given rights". But the founding document of this country, the very first agreement entered into that established the United States of America, declares that to be the basis for the country. Furthermore, the Constitution reiterated it in the Ninth Amendment.
Your profile says you are committed to advancing liberalism. The idea of innate individual rights is one of the most important assumptions, if not the most important assumption of liberalism.
You deny such a concept, I totally embrace it. How can we proceed?

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I believe in liberalism, I just think rights are justified in a different way than you. One way to proceed is to ask, "What sort of things have intrinsic worth?" That is, what are ends in themselves? Rights have instrumental worth because they promote human flourishing and advance the general welfare. Are there good reasons to believe they have intrinsic worth? What does it mean for rights to be "innate"? Does this mean that God created them? You should provide a justification for the existence of "innate rights" (the burden of proof is on the person making the existence claim)

Parenthetically, what the Constitution says is not a good basis for morality. Morality and the law are distinct, though we often use moral judgments to create laws.

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Andrew, you've just contradicted your whole argument in support of an absolute set of morals independent of time and circumstance:

By denying the notion of God-given rights, and concluding that "the burden of proof [of the existence of 'innate rights'] is on the person making the existence claim", combined with the fact that the human race has demonstrated that it can exhibit an undeniably and remarkably dynamic moral compass over time (e.g., we've gone from a significant percentage of Americans supporting the institution of slavery in 1860 to a significant percentage of Americans voting for an African-American president in 2008), it is illogical for you to outright deny the only knowable fact that morality is completely relative.

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No, Michael, I haven't. You don't have to believe in God or natural rights to be a moral objectivist.

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omg, dude...

So, if by "moral objectivist" you mean you're part of the Ayn Rand cult, then you utterly ARE contradicting yourself, for being an Ayn Rand objectivist hinges ENTIRELY on respect for innate -- or otherwise acknowledgment of a moral basis for the existence of -- individual rights.

OR if you're simply a moral absolutist...*sigh* there's really no way to deny this: there ARE RIGHTS...and there ARE WRONGS.

Furthermore, if you think that by reason, or argument or persuasion or what have you, you believe people can come to understand an inherent, absolute sense of morality, then you think that people have innate, inalienable rights granted to us by the very existence of those moral absolutes...

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...And once again:

Humankind's nature has shown to fluctuate quite a bit (e.g., we've gone from a significant percentage of Americans supporting the institution of slavery in 1860 to a significant percentage of Americans voting for an African-American president in 2008). Human beings are not consistent. That said, when you acknowledge that proving the existence of rights is on the burden of people (YOUR WORDS) -- members of humankind, and therefore harbingers of natural, moral fluctuation -- then moral relativism is, irnoically, an absolute. And both having this belief in moral objectivity and acknowledging that people change is contradictory. They are simply incompatible with each other.

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No, Randian Objectivism has nothing to do with what I am arguing.

Again, many schools of ethics reject relativism, but do not accept God or "innate" rights, e.g., consequentialism, utilitarianism, and Aristotelian virtue ethics. The innate rights group is a branch within moral objectivism. It would be easier to explain this with a tree diagram.

Your view is incredibly incoherent. Nothing I have said is controversial among ethicists. You appear to be constructing a theory as you go along.

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A fascinating diversion, but both of you have retreated into debating the finer points of moral philosiphy at the expense of further debate by others on this policy topic.

You disagree, we get it. Both have a mic, and let someone who's blood isn't boiling have a go.

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Agreed, Mr. Dowdall.

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Hello, again, Andrew. United States of America. Founding document Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self evident ..." Self evident.
Furthermore, such a foundation of innate rights functions quite well. The legislature does not have to craft a new bill each time someone thinks up a new right. Instead the legislature debates long and hard as to why it is necessary to take away an innate right.
I have difficulty picturing a country in which each and every right had to be legislated.

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Andrew, just to be certain I'm not misunderstood, I do not believe that anyone can prove the existence of innate rights. Certainly I cannot. What was determined by those who wrote the founding documents and those who accepted them was that innate rights formed a practical, workable basis for government.

It would be interesting to hear the details of the workings of a government founded on the basis that it must grant all rights.

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Andrew, regarding the United States government, if you believe that innate rights do not exist, then you need to try to repeal the Ninth Amendment.

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Andrew, as to peaceful coexistence, I believe that a society cannot continue to exist unless each of the individuals that constitute it can expect the government to ensure their liberty. Ensure their liberty specifically against others who might forcefully or otherwise take it away. Coexistence has to do with simply living in the same country. I assume that "peaceful" needs no further definition.

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Andrew, the only method that government has for protecting an individual from another individual's intrusion on their rights is punishment. Our constitution attempts to assure that guilt is determined as fully as possible and forbids cruel and unusual punishment.
Over time, the definition of guilt has been honed. Over time the definition of cruel and unusual has been honed. As of the moment a sufficient number of people have not persuaded the legislature or the courts that the death penalty is cruel andor unusual or even inappropriate.

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Andrew, you have the inherent liberty to speak your mind about the death penalty or any other penalty and argue on whatever grounds you like. You are free to argue that decisions of legislation should be made on moral grounds.
I am free to argue that decisions of legislation should be made on practical grounds. I believe that legislative decisions should be made to assure that each individual is free to exercise her innate rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness: because that is as close as we can practically come to enjoying a country wherein peaceful coexistence is possible.

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Phil, thanks for all your comments. We agree that rights, specifically constitutional rights, are justified, we just think they're justified for different reasons. It's a relatively minor point. I don't think the founders were correct when they said that rights were "endowed by our Creator" (I'm an atheist). I think that rights are justified because they promote human flourishing, respect human dignity, and promote virtue. That doesn't mean I think the Ninth Amendment isn't justified. I just think it's justified by appealing to a deeper moral principle and that the Ninth Amendment was created by men, not God. What follows is the possibility that the original Constitution is not a 100% just document, e.g., in terms of minority/women's rights

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Andrew, I appreciate your views. But I simply disagree that the individual's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness must be "justified" by a "deep moral principle".
I have no concern one way or another that you are an atheist.
Earlier, we spoke of innate rights and you appeared to believe that there were no such things, arguing that they must have come from somewhere. I do not understand that argument. Innate rights, by the definition of the term innate, simply means that we are born with rights. The only alternative that I can see is that we are born without rights. Comment?

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First, there's a distinction between moral rights and legal rights. We are definitely born with legal rights, such as the rights you speak of, because we have been granted them by the Basic Structure of society (in the U.S., at least). I don't think about rights as "existing" because it makes them seem like metaphysical things that persist through time. I think of rights as moral obligations we have to one another that "exist" by appealing to things that have intrinsic worth: human flourishing/welfare, human dignity/respect, virtue, etc. So, we are born with rights in the sense that when we are born, others have moral obligations about how to treat us. But it's also true that the rights we are born with are somewhat context dependent.

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Andrew, thanks for explaining. We disagree.
My concern about thinking about rights in moral terms is that it leaves rights open to endless debate. And leaves them open to limiting rights, democratically, to only those specific rights agreed upon by a majority.
Such an approach puts the burden of proof that a right exists on those who believe it to be a right.
If, on the other hand, we begin with innate rights (not just legal ones) then the burden is on those who would restrict those rights to prove that we should NOT have them. My overwhelming preference.

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Andrew, I apologize for forgetting to agree with you that there is a distinction between moral rights and legal rights. But I'm not sure where that agreement takes us. There is also distinction between a right to make my own decisions and a right to be treated humanely, let's say. To do or be done to.
On another point, you are at liberty (love that innate right) to believe that rights do not exist. I note that you mention "persisting through time". I might not want to believe that time exists. But I will have difficulty dealing with others and even conversing if I insist on that belief.

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I don't remember the name but a British author says that how many will you punish for death? How many will you slaughter? How many will you take into the bars?

Till there is the difference between rich and poor we won't have a second to breath peacefully. We should be having equality, peace, social justice and progress.

Then me and you both will be living in a peaceful World. So we should say no to death penalty.

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I don't remember the name but a British author says that how many will you punish for death? How many will you slaughter? How many will you take into the bars?

Till there is the difference between rich and poor we won't have a second to breath peacefully. We should be having equality, peace, social justice and progress.

Then me and you both will be living in a peaceful World. So we should say no to death penalty.

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Deterrence is everything, and the fact that there are infinite criminological studies that suggest that the DP does little for murder rates and is arbitrarily administered tells us something. I also have an issue when people claim that the sole purpose of the CJS is to protect law abiding citizens. They are called correctional facilities for a reason that everyone continues to dismiss. When the State kills a man, no one is being corrected, restored or reintegrated. In essence, everyone loses: the family of the original victim, the family of the new victim, the men who are hired by the state who suffer psychological and emotional trauma from conducting the procedure, and our culture.

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2 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Other people think punishment is ju...

  • Jerome Nathaniel 5 months ago As much as Brewer sickens me, and I...

Other people think punishment is justified on grounds of desert. Do you disagree? Do you think the phrase "justice was done" is meaningless? For example, what do you think would be a fair punishment for Lawrence Russell Brewer and his two friends?

I'm not sure who said the sole purpose of the CJS is to protect law abiding citizens, but it wasn't me. See my previous response to Matt's comment. In short, I agree with you, though I think that not everyone can be "corrected". For that group, we do have tough decisions to make about what to do.

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As much as Brewer sickens me, and I admit to my bias, I don't think his execution is constitutional or even humane (even though we know for certain that he committed the crime). Whether or not I feel bad for him is different from me acknowledging that it is unfair for a State to administer his execution. He probably couldn't be "corrected," so he deserved life in prison. But I'm still not convinced that execution does anything for anybody, or at least anymore than life w/o parole.

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Humans, being human, are fallible. As such it behooves us to insure that we can un-make our mistakes. This would argue against application of the death penalty.

At the same time, the concept of being held without possibility of parole for the rest of my life in an 8x10 cell would encourage me to make my life a short one. Arguing in favor of the death penalty because of cruel punishment.

Looking for an easy and straightforward answer? Not happenin'

This one has more twists and turns than a wild mouse ride at the carnival, and as many right answers as there are people thinking about it.

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I'm always confused by what people truly mean when they talk about "The Justice System." Nowhere in your article do you attempt to explain or highlight what particular aspect of this justice system necessitates repair. Is it the appellate process? The Voir Dire process? The rules of evidence on admission of prejudicial evidence?

I have faith in the judicial process' administration of justice and guarantee of procedural and substantive due process. But judges are also human and do make mistakes. What is important is to have a system of checks and balances to prevent those mistakes from recurring.

Also, your second point closely resembles Justice Scalia dissent in Roper V. Simmons. Check it out, I think you'd find it very interesting.

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1 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago At 700 words, my article was alread...

At 700 words, my article was already running a little long. The specific ideas I had in mind are ensuring adequate defense by paying public defenders more, instructing jurors about the reliability of eyewitness testimony and further developing witness identification techniques, and allowing newly discovered evidence to be presented after conviction.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll definitely check it out.

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Andrew, Good post, and we ARE going at this the wrong way.
The core question is who we are. I'm not a killer and I don't want to become one. I've done nothing to deserve to have an execution on my conscience, even of a 100% guilty person, even if it costs more to keep them locked up.

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5 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Are you a kidnapper? Are you a slav...

  • Susan Anderson 5 months ago No, and no. Hard to tell, are yo...

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago I'm not disagreeing. I'm ...

Are you a kidnapper? Are you a slaveholder?

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No, and no.
Hard to tell, are you agreeing with me?

I'm new so only get a little space: If we're moral people, we won't do anything that we consider immoral. The death penalty means that people have to actively participate in a killing, paid for by taxpayers. The cost is beside the point.

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I'm not disagreeing. I'm trying to point out that punishment is tricky from a moral perspective. We're not kidnappers or slaveholders, but we think it's ok to incarcerate people and put them to work.

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Okay, I see where you're heading.
I'm quite comfortable with the idea of protecting society from people who've shown from their conduct that they're willing to hurt someone else. To me it's not the moral equivalent of kidnapping or slaveholding at all. I do think conditions should be humane.

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I don't think that killing innocent people and punishing people using capital punishment are morally equivalent either. I agree capital punishment should be humane. Firing squads, hangings, death by electrocution are all inhumane.

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Nice piece Andrew, i'll have to agree with you. You make very interesting points about the close similarities between the death penality and life imprisonment. I'm not sure which is more humane, a lot of convicted murderers serving life end up being killed in jail anyway. What happened in the Troy Davis case was unjust and unfair but that does not mean the death penalty has to be completely eliminated. There are soul-less people out there who commit some downright, gruesome and unremorseful murders that deserve the death penalty. However, The problem is the disproportionatility in death sentencing. As Sal already mentioned, those who come from impoverished areas are more likely to get the needle due to lack of funds, etc.

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1 Replies

  • Sally Nnamani 5 months ago Improving the justice system to bal...

Improving the justice system to balance out this disproportionality, reserving the death penalty for those who commit senseless/gruesome crimes, suspending the death penalty in the case of doubt would be some places to start...

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Andrew, what of the moral aspect of using the death penalty? I know you were responding to a recent article, but this is an important aspect--what say you?

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10 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Thanks for asking. I intentionally ...

  • Michael Luciano 5 months ago "I don't view it as much ...

  • Jordan Wolf 5 months ago Yes but as you note, we should make...

Thanks for asking. I intentionally didn't say much because my point is that we should direct our frustrations toward improving the justice system. I have mixed feelings about it. I don't view it as much more heinous, if at all, than life imprisonment without parole. Momentary pain and then the afterlife or ceasing to exist v. a lifetime of solitude, enslavement, and brutality. In general, I think we should try to rehabilitate all convicts by educating them and teaching them life and work skills. Unfortunately, this is not always possible, but it should be the primary focus of incarceration. If you can't rehabilitate someone after 20 years, I think that death and life imprisonment are both equally bad, but perhaps necessary alternatives.

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"I don't view it as much more heinous, if at all, than life imprisonment without parole. Momentary pain and then the afterlife or ceasing to exist v. a lifetime of solitude, enslavement, and brutality."

Most people in prison for life will tell you they'd rather be alive than dead. I don't think you're in a position to make this call, however high-minded your ruminations may be. You can let a lifer out of jail, but you can't undo his execution.

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Yes but as you note, we should make the right comparisons before judging death vs. life imprisonment. Jails that aren't managed right can be a nightmare and might be worse than execution, but most people who argue for life in prison over death think that the death penalty is wrong because it does too much to those who have done wrong. If it turns out that the present system causes more damage/pain through life imprisonment than death, then they will likely be in favor of reforming prison conditions so that the pain/damage it inflicts is commensurate with the crime.

The right comparison is not between capital punishment and life imprisonment as it stands, but between capital punishment and life imprisonment, revised.

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Michael, we have an evolutionary instinct to fear death. I don't think it's necessarily rational, or that we can infer that, because people would prefer one option, they're better off in the long run. I don't think either punishment can be undone.

Jordan, I agree that we should try to make prisons less heinous. Widespread rape and beatings is particularly troubling. I don't think there's a good argument that the death penalty does too much. However, I'd be more interested to hear your theory/take on how to determine what punishment is commensurate with particular crimes.

I disagree with you about the right comparison. We need to consider the actual consequences involved in punishment, not the imagined ones.

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Andrew, your position is flat-out ridiculous and divorced from real-world considerations. Take the executed Cameron Willingham, whom science has essentially exonerated for the murders he allegedly committed. According to you this is the preferred outcome, in lieu of say, him spending an indefinite amount of time in prison because, well, death in that case might just be the more rational preference, even though he'd still have a chance at freedom.

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That is not my position. That is a straw man.

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Really? I think I have your position nailed down pretty well. As far as I can tell, your argument is that it is no better for an innocent man to be jailed for life than executed. To which I observed that a man wrongly jailed may at least continue to fight, and should he be vindicated, freed to enjoy whatever time he has left. A life sentence need not be a fait accompli. You've never directly addressed this point. Why not?

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Life imprisonment needn't be anywhere near solitude, enslavement, and brutality. Rehabilitation over punishment. Totting out an old example but globally Norway has one of the lowest homicide rates but also has the shortest period of detention; 21 years for "containment" or maximum sentence. In my opinion, the UK and US are ripe for prison reform and one of the most important areas is the present imbalance between punishment and rehabilitation. Once you negate the prisoner as citizen (worthy and capable of being in society, never mind being alive) then you've dictated a behaviour for the future.

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Michael, my position is that innocent people should be freed. If it takes the justice system longer than 20 years to find contrary evidence, the problem is the justice system, not the punishment.

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Tom, I agree with you; I just think that it's not always possible to rehabilitate all convicts, but it should be the chief course of action in all cases.

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I believe poverty is the principal cause of disproportionate convictions and death penalties in minority communities, much less so discriminatory judges and juries . Until we find a way to fight poverty more effectively, crime will continue to cause out-sized representation from these groups.

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1 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Good point, Sal. ...

Good point, Sal.

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"The imperfections in the criminal justice system raise serious questions about the permissibility of punishment, but most abolitionists are not arguing for eliminating the justice system altogether."

You can release a wrongly convicted person from prison, but you can't un-execute somone, such as Cameron Willingham. Each year people on death row are exonerated. This fact alone should be enough for abolishment, or at least a moratorium.

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7 Replies

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago Do you agree with my argument that ...

  • Michael Luciano 5 months ago Yes, but that does not necessarily ...

  • Andrew Hanson 5 months ago The death penalty does not differ f...

Do you agree with my argument that capital punishment cases get more attention and resources devoted to them than others? Also, do you believe that there's a way to reverse the years of pain and suffering by inmates incarcerated for life?

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Yes, but that does not necessarily mean the outcome is the correct one. No, if the inmate is wrongly convicted and dies in prison as you seem to be implying. As long as an innocent inmate is still alive, he still has a chance to be free again.

The death penalty serves no practical or socially beneficial purpose whatsoever. The DP doesn't even seem to make a good deterrent, as DP states actually have higher murder rates than non-DP states.

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The death penalty does not differ from other forms of punishment in terms of its justification. It is practically and socially beneficial insofar as it gives people what they deserve and deters people from committing crimes. Regarding its effectiveness as a deterrent, do you have any specific studies you wish to cite? As far as I know, the evidence is mixed. In any case, the social and economic factors in different states, among other things, undoubtedly play a large role in determining the murder rate. We shouldn't confuse correlation and causation. If you don't think death is an effective deterrent, imagine what would happen if, say, not paying taxes was punishable by death.

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I don't agree that the DP "gives people what they deserve." The chief function of any decent justice system is to protect law abiding citizens. Life imprisonment of murderers accomplishes this. Most criminologists dispute your assertion that the DP is a deterrent:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/files/DeterrenceStudy2009.pdf .

(Journal of Law and Criminology, 2009)



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yes Michael, deathpenaltyinfo.org has good stuff. I think they also took a poll of criminologists (not that rigorous I know) and asked them whether they thought the death penalty was a deterrent. Most said no.

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The death penalty is a deterrent for sure, but mainly insofar as it is a punishment of some sort. The probability of being punished is probably more important than the severity. In Troy Davis's case, I don't know if if he knew the punishment for killing a police officer and I'm not sure he knew the person he killed was an off duty police officer (I looked but couldn't find a quick answer). http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/Deterrence%20Briefing%20.pdf

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"I'm not sure he knew the person he killed was an off duty police officer." I'm not sure if anyone other than Troy, MacPhail, the shaky witnesses or Sylvester Cole (who continues to threaten "law abiding citizens") even know if he killed an off duty cop. The Courts cannot say that for certain, and neither can we

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