Occupy Wall Street: Should Corporations be Considered People?

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Occupy Wall Street: Should Corporations be Considered People?

One of the rhetorical centerpieces behind Occupy Wall Street is the notion that big corporations should not be considered people. Of course the recent uproar over whether corporations are people comes from the Citizens United decision. Although we often hear about how this case opens the floodgates to corporate funds, it is safe to assume that very few people have actually read the opinion.

In this landmark 5-4 Supreme Court decision, the Court held that the First Amendment protects corporate and union funding of independent political broadcasts in elections. In doing so, the Supreme Court struck down portions of the McCain-Feingold Act that prohibited corporations and unions from broadcasting “electioneering communications” — any broadcast, cable, or satellite communication that mentions a candidate within 60 days of a general election or 30 days of a primary.

The First Amendment provides that “Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech.” Now, without getting too much into the legal nitty-gritty, the basic premise of the majority opinion is that a restriction of the speech of corporations unconstitutionally favors one speaker over another. The majority opinion found that the “purpose and effect [of the law at issue] are to silence entities whose voices the government deems to be suspect.” They found that this is particularly troubling in the context of political speech because “[s]peech is an essential mechanism of democracy, for it is the means to hold officials accountable to the people.” In sum, “By taking the right to speak from some and giving it to others, the government deprives the disadvantaged person or class of the right to use speech to strive to establish worth, standing, and respect for the speaker’s voice. The government may not by these means deprive the public of the right and privilege to determine for itself what speech and speakers are worthy of consideration.”

In stark contrast to the majority opinion, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote a 90 page dissenting opinion, arguing that “[t]he conceit that corporations must be treated identically to natural persons in the political sphere is not only inaccurate but also inadequate to justify the Court’s disposition of this case.” Stevens observed that, “[a]lthough they make enormous contributions to our society, corporations are not actually members of it. They cannot vote or run for office.” Moreover, Stevens added that, “Corporations have no consciences, no beliefs, no feelings, no thoughts, no desires. Corporations help structure and facilitate the activities of human beings, to be sure, and their 'personhood' often serves as a useful legal fiction. But they are not themselves members of 'We the People' by whom and for whom our Constitution was established.”

So the conflict is simple: Whereas the majority tried to craft a legal argument that corporate speech is still speech that may not be abridged under the First Amendment, the dissent relied on common sense and ordinary meaning (as well as legal argument) that corporate speech is less than speech by individuals.

Nowhere in the majority opinion, however, does the Supreme Court explicitly say that corporations are people. That’s what politicians are for. At the Iowa State Fair, Romney famously said, “Corporations are people, my friend.” Obviously this is a poor choice of words.  He clarified, “Of course they are…  Everything corporations earn ultimately goes to people. Where do you think it goes?” 

But even if the benefits of corporations goes to people, as opponents of taxes on dividends frequently point out, common sense argues against a finding that corporations are anything but entities or tools for people. In law we often create legal fictions — this being one of them. Such breaks from reality are not prima facie incorrect, but they do leave people, especially non-lawyers, scratching their heads. And now, for good reason, those head-scratchers are out in the streets and protesting outside my office building.

Photo Credit: Ken_Mayer

 


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Chris Kendall

I'm a lawyer at O'Melveny & Myers LLP. I graduated from Stanford University in 2007, having triple-majored in Art History, Classic...

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Brad Paraszczak

Unions aren't people. Union money is just as corrupting as corporate money. I support banning all of it. I support unions, I just don't support unlimited money in politics.

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The Supreme Court ruling has allowed for the unlimited use of private and corporate donations in Super-PACS, as seen with Mitt Romney's campaign and others. There is no accountability for how these Super-PACS corrupt the facts for voters, buy out the media, and drown the validity of the U.S. vote

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I understand (basically) the rationale behind the court's support of the view that corporations are people.

Given that reality, then they should also be regarded as "people" within the communities and regions and societies within which they function and operate. In other words, their responsibility and liability does not end with accountants and shareholders. Rather, they are to be responsible to the community as well (and vice versa); every obligation implies a relationship in which both parties have duties.

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  • Chris Kendall 7 months ago Are living/breathing people any bet...

  • George Schieck 7 months ago I don't think this is a matter...

Are living/breathing people any better than corporations in terms of their responsibility to a community?

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I don't think this is a matter of who (or what) is a better "person." Rather, it's a common sense approach where all are cognizant of each other, and a sense of dignity is primary.

It's not just market share that dictates how a corp. is to act, or where it directs its energies, or where it physically relocates its physical plant(s), but ALSO it is that persons (to include, in this case, corporations) are to act in the best interests of each other.

The corp. is not just out to make a buck, it is also concerned, at least in part, with being a good citizen or member of the community. Again, it's a two way relationship: each has obligations and expectations of the other.

The ramifications of this are many! It's a new and better paradigm.

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Consider reading this article from the New York Times on a meeting between Wall Street and Main Street before the decision not to clean up Zuccotti Park:
http://nyti.ms/qOb3M5

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Supreme Court has stated that the First Amendment protects 1) assembling peaceably; and 2) spending money as "free speech." Corporations can spend money on Wall Street for basically anything as "free speech."

Occupy Wall Street cannot assemble peaceably on Wall Street.

::Scratches head::

Corporations aren't just people. They're super people and often possess rights and attributes which are superior to natural people.

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6 Replies

  • Jon Awbrey 7 months ago The topic of social contracts frequ...

  • Bryan Wade 7 months ago Just because a large amount of peop...

  • Brad Paraszczak 7 months ago Rights and morals are social constr...

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Just because a large amount of people believe something doesn't make it right or moral. All a social contract is is a lot of people thinking something.

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Rights and morals are social constructs. If enough people believe that something should be protected, then it will be. If enough people oppose some practice, then it will be banned.

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Brad, that is a statement of how things are, not how they should be. I am fully aware that a large enough mob can easily oppress the minority. That doesn't make it right though. Things that are bad now were still bad a thousand years ago. The majority was just more easily able to oppress others in the past.

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We're talking chicken-and-the-egg philosophy. Right and wrong (morals) are attributes that societies assign to practices. It's a flaw in the natural law argument - inductive logic that refuses to believe that societies develop "rights" and therefore must cite some theological origin that nobody can question. These things do not just spontaneously appear. Conversely, how do you oppress that which does not actually exist?

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Corporations can and should be deprived of most civil rights, not just the right to influence elections. They are legal fictions, creatures of the state created to serve public interests. The electoral process should not ever be one of those interests.

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  • Poor Richard 7 months ago Progressive corporations must give ...

  • Poor Richard 7 months ago You can't use any kind of adva...

  • Poor Richard 7 months ago Voting and campaigning are not just...

Progressive corporations must give up that privilege, too. People can still cooperate in unincorporated associations to influence elections, and we probably need rules for that as well, just as we have rules that govern the voting process itself. You can't yell fire in a crowded theater why? You can

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You can't use any kind of advantage to unduly influence an election for the same reasons. It decreases the power and effect of other less-advantaged individuals' votes. Democracy is at stake, and the Constitution was not written to exterminate democracy.

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Voting and campaigning are not just any kind of speech. The law has always recognized the principle of justice and proportionality in cases of competing or conflicting rights. No ones' right of speech is unlimited. "My rights end at the other person's nose." Especially when it comes to elections.

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  • Poor Richard 7 months ago Sorry, the comment editor kept cutt...

Sorry, the comment editor kept cutting my comment short for some reason so I had to post it in multiple sections above.

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  • Ecaterina Burton 7 months ago Your points are very astute, Jon. Y...

Your points are very astute, Jon. You also have a lot of facts on your side. Sadly, that's also what's lacking in most people's opinions on this forum. Thanks for being one of the few people who backs up their arguments with facts.

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1 - Corporations are not people.

2 - Money is not speech.

Thank you, Supreme Court, for handing down two decisions that have done nothing but increase corruption in government...

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  • Jon Awbrey 7 months ago Corruption Is As Corruption Does....

  • Gary W. Patterson, Jr. 7 months ago 3- Unions are not people. I gues...

  • Brad Paraszczak 7 months ago Unions aren't people. Union mo...

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3- Unions are not people.

I guess you forgot that one.

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Unions aren't people. Union money is just as corrupting as corporate money. I support banning all of it. I support unions, I just don't support unlimited money in politics.

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While I disagree with your conclusion, I applaud your consistency.

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  • Jon Awbrey 7 months ago All of the above considerations rem...

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Of course a corporation isn't a person. It is a group of people. And just because you join a group of people doesn't mean that you lose any of your rights.

All the actions of a corporation are controlled by people, and just because those people choose to pool their money, and split the cost for doing something, doesn't mean they don't have the right to do it.

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  • Jon Awbrey 7 months ago That is rather simplistic, don'...

  • Brad Paraszczak 7 months ago You don't vote in groups. You ...

  • Phil Sexton 7 months ago Brad, the Constitution protects ri...

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You don't vote in groups. You vote as individuals. Corporations, of course, do not vote. Nothing in the Constitution grants companies a right to spend unlimited funds on political campaigns. The problem isn't so much Citizens United, it's Buckley v. Valeo. Money is not speech. It should be limited.

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Brad, the Constitution protects rights, it doesn't grant them.

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Brad, do individuals who form other kinds of groups have rights to free speech, or do you just single out corporations?

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I'm responding to the question at the top of the page. There is a difference between saying that corporations, unions, non-profits, etc. have free speech rights under the 1st Amendment and saying that spending money equals speech under the 1st Amendment. I'm just focused on the money part.

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That, of course, assumes that there is universal agreement on what a right is. Natural law vs. Positive law. There is widespread disagreement on whether spending money is considered speech as it is protected under the 1st Amendment. That's all I'm referring to.

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Bryan, no matter how people organize themselves, or not, there must be controls on the money spent in elections and on any other kind of non-vote advantage that diminishes the value of others' individual votes, or you might as well let people buy, sell and trade votes. Surely that is obvious.

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Richard if you want that then you need to change the first amendment. Restricting money spent on speech is the same as restricting speech (note that this is regarding Broadcasting rights, which is speech).

It should never be illegal to make an argument or try and convince someone that your argument is correct. This isn't buying votes. This is spending money to get speech to people.

Restricting money spent on broadcasting would make making some arguments illegal. What you are saying is that there are some arguments that people shouldn't be allowed use resources to distribute.

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The fundamental flaw of that argument is that you assume one should be able to disproportionately influence the political process. One man, one vote is key to the democratic process. But you can just as easily sway elections by bankrolling candidates (on both sides), by buying up all air time, by putting out lies in advertisements that would be too expensive to respond to. Restricting expenditures would only level the playing field.

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Phil, that's one view--not mine. "Natural rights" theories all in some way rely on divinity. If one is agnostic about divinity, one must be agnostic about natural rights. CIVIL rights are established by social contract--in this case the founding federal, state and local documents and subsequent law.

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I agree with you, Poor Richard, but can civil rights be improvidently granted? By this I mean to ask if a body can incorrectly grant "rights" (e.g. Citizens United) that aren't really rights at all. There must be some connection between natural rights and civil rights, if only to establish rights that are indisputable (life, speech, religion, voting) and those that are in question (spending unlimited money to sway elections).

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In nearly all cases money and media ARE protected speech under the 1st Amendment--but within several months of elections all forms of political speech should be limited to some reasonable amount that is fair to all. Or don't pretend this is any kind of republic or democracy. What's the confusion?

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The point was to elicit whether the Court was wrong in ruling that money and media are protected speech, rather than assuming their judgments are correct. I believe they were, which makes limiting contributions and spending easier. If you believe they were correct, then trying to limit them during certain time periods seems like a fruitless effort.

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So we have to protect voters from hearing arguments that we don't like, eh? Shouldn't the voters decided for themselves whats a good argument and what isn't?

Democracy isn't when you put everyone in a vacuum and then vote. It is when everyone has the right to express their own arguments as much as they like and then you vote.

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I guess if you want to set up a simplistic straw-man you can go ahead. I never said anything about censoring ideas. I'm talking about buying elections. If you had equal radio or tv time then it would be easy to weigh both candidates' positions and cast a vote. If you have someone buy up all the air time so their opponent cannot respond effectively to attacks, it slants the playing field. This has nothing to do with message, only spending.

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Great question. Civil rights CAN be improvidently granted. But sentiments about SOME rights are nearly universal. Near-universal sentiments might be considered "natural" by virtue of some inferred basis in "human nature." I have no problem with that kind of ad hoc, non-theological naturalism.

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Bryan, if you are going to put false words in other peoples' mouths, maybe you should sit in the time out corner for a while. . .

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I see it as a common issue on this site. Some people answer the question they wished was asked, rather than the one that was asked. Somehow "Should corporations be considered people?" devolves into "Well why don't you include unions, too?" The best way to win an argument is to stay focused on the issue at hand: Does money equal speech?

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Brad, clearly the court was NOT correct that unlimited election-period speech is a priori protected speech. Just as in other cases of unprotected speech, such as perjury or incitement, it is the negative social consequences which determine the balance of competing interests.

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I fear that at 3am we have expended our usefulness on this thread. We're just agreeing with each other now, haha.

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Brad, money doesn't equal speech, but that isn't the root issue. The issue is any kind of excessive ELECTION-time special-interest influence. For the sake of democracy every fair, even-handed, reasonable effort should be made to level the field to keep from devaluing anyone's vote. Its about Rules.

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There are thousands of rules about speech that people accept because they are reasonable and fitting to some context such as a court or an auction. So even if money DID equal speech, that isn't the point. It is just as reasonable to have rules about election-time speech as any other kind of speech.

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Honestly the only things that could be leveled are finances and communications (equal air time). What else would you need to do to level the playing field? The Electoral College sufficiently devalues some people's votes already. (Perfect segue to our next voting reform topic).

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I think that would be impractical especially given the rise of the permanent campaign. Every vote, every debate, everything is in some way tangentially related to political speech. I think there are practical rules to be agreed upon by all parties, but "election-time speech," I think, would be deemed overly-broad for purposes of regulating.

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Brad, I'm not as interested in specific policy details as the general principle of preserving one-man-one-vote in any way practicable. But certainly money, media, and other in-kind contributions that can be well-quantified should be restricted to some reasonable limits. Good point about the EC, LOL.

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Brad, I agree its impractical to limit election related speech & other influence outside of a specific pre-election time period--say 120 days. In that period the obvious solution is public financing and equal media allowances/limits. I see no harm in up to, say, $100 per-head contributions as well.

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Brad, I replied to your post because you wrote of the Constitution's granting of rights. That is not the nature of the Constitution. There is a very, very important distinction between having a government in which rights must be granted, and a government that begins with the assumption of inherent rights and whose purpose to protect those rights.

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I just had a 3 hour conversation with a friend regarding the philosophy behind rights, natural law, positive law, etc. I've concluded that there is no such thing as inherent rights. Societies, ever evolving, determine those things that it deems valuable and distinguishes them as rights. I also think it's a peculiar catch-22: Consensus often determines rights, but rights are not theoretically up for a popular vote.

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Poor Richard (please use your real name), it simply does not follow that if money is "allowed" to be spent on advertising during elections then "you might as well let people buy, sell and trade votes." No, it is not obvious.

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(I hate character limits.) Anyway, rights are social constructs. Marriage, voting, speech, religion - all social constructs. Society says "we desire these things" and they are considered rights. Consider the Hobbesian state of nature: We are born as autonomous beings, we give up certain natural instincts to form societies to protect us from that state of nature. That society is considered "government."

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Brad, with respect, regardless of your conclusion, arrived at through 3 hours of conversation, that inherent rights do not exist, the United States was founded on the principle that they do.

The Declaration was the document that established the United States. Inherent rights are a self-evident truth and government's purpose is to protect those rights.

The Constitution states that it was agreed to by the people in order to (among other things) secure the blessings of liberty, by which they clearly meant to affirm the Declaration.

In order to change that basic principle of foundation, you would have to, somehow, repeal the Declaration. How would you do that?

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The Leviathan, then, forms a protectorate. Go back to day 1 of civilization - "rights" did not exist. Instincts did, sure. But there was no such thing as marriage, or religion, or the press, etc. And regardless of what 56 men wrote on a petition in 1776, it doesn't make it irrefutable fact that our creator endowed us with specific rights. If something is a right then it must exist prior to the foundation of the US. Rights didn't spawn in 1789.

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The United States was also founded on the principle that African-Americans were 3/5ths of a person (only for apportionment; chattel all other times). So the Framers are batting .500 at this point. The Framers were not infallible.

Also, the Declaration has no legal status in the US, nor does the Preamble to the Constitution. And by "We The People" they meant "we the white, male, property owners over 21 years of age."

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Poor, you express the opinion that "natural rights theories" rely on divinity.

That is purely an opinion. It does not negate the principle.

I have no problem whatsoever in accepting the idea of natural rights as the best starting point for government. The other starting point is that no one has any rights unless granted by someone or something else (such as government). It does not rely on divinity in any way.

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Contending that natural rights are the starting point for government is one of the worst inductive theories. Arguing that rights are granted by someone or something else is also foolish because the notion of rights necessitates "inherentness." The third starting point, a more rational one, is that there are no such things as rights. It's all about social constructs. What does society desire and what does it oppose?

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Phil, if advertising is unbiased/objective then we're better off for it. But if it distorts facts it distorts the value of our votes just as it would any other another product. Our votes, like our dollars, are sucked into an artificial, asymmetrical marketplace manipulated by special interests.

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Brad, if you simply want to argue that the foundation of the United States was flawed and that you don't have to accept anything that was said way back in the old days when those hypocritical slave owners imposed non-citizenship on slaves and were taking land from the rightful native American owners and those rights mentioned in the Ninth Amendment did not take into account the internet, etc. etc., then it is useless to banter any of this back and forth.

It is a fact that the Declaration was the document that first mentioned the United States that was agreed to by those states.

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Poor, I operate and make decisions on the assumption that each person is responsible for evaluating the worth of whatever they read or hear. Again, the alternative is to have someone else evaluate the worth and then censor or limit speech.

I cannot accept that.

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Phil, respectfully, I think you just miss the point about theories of rights. As for the Declaration, I've read much of the literature from the pre-revolution era to the ratification debates. There was widespread disagreement over separating from the Crown, likely an even split. In fact, many of the colonists considered the Declaration to be a coup, as the signers were not empowered to make such decisions in the 2nd Continental Congress.

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Phil, we should say that rights are not granted by government per se, but by the people to one another. That social contract must actually exist before a state becomes possible. Then a state based on popular sovereignty (Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau) derives it powers from consent of the people.

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I don't consider theoretical discussions "useless banter" - I think the point of this website you chose to join is to facilitate such discussions.

If rights are inherent then they were around before 1776 and are finite. But they aren't because societies evolve and expand the social constructs we call "rights."

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Also, the Supreme Court clearly said that neither the Declaration nor the Preamble have any legal status. I can't sue the government because the "general welfare" was not "provide[d] for." And my inability to pursue "happiness" does not grant me legal standing. Our founding documents are fascinating, but they are not without flaws. Let's not get too carried away thinking they are.

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Brad and Poor, you folks seem to want to start all over again on redefining a specific government that already has been defined and exists. To bring up the arguments that preceded the foundation is interesting but irrelevant.

At this point in history you either accept the government as it is and argue for change through established legal processes or you advocate revolution - overthrow by extralegal means.

I have no quarrel with your wanting change, I do quarrel with changes being made extralegally.

To say that a Supreme Court decision was wrong is interesting but inconsequential. The only valid way to change it must lie within the system as it exists, or else revolution.

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Brad, I think you could say that for something to achieve the status of a right in a young society requires near-universal consensus. Later, when powerful institutions such as the SCOTUS and Congress exist, rights may come and go more episodically. They can still be established by amendment, for example, but that takes more than a simple popular vote.

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Technically, since we are on the subject of rights, most of the political theorists cited a "right to revolution."

Also, I never said anything about changing anything through extralegal means. I'm talking about the theory of rights. You seem averse to discussing anything theoretical or pre-1776. No offense, but we're talking past each other at this point.

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Brad, I do not deny that revolution is possible and even appropriate under certain circumstances. But if that is what is being advocated, then be clear about it.

The original topic had to do with corporations' being persons. It is currently established that corporations are persons so far as free speech and spending to promote that speech is concerned. To change that requires either going through established legal processes or otherwise.

If the purpose of this long discussion is to advocate legal change then, of course, all may freely do so. I agree with the Supreme Court decision. You do not. We also disagree on the basis for it - inherent rights.

What do you actually advocate in real terms?

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Sometimes principles change, but I don't that is necessary in this case. The belief that rights were divinely endowed was a strong bias of the times. Yet people rarely toss out holy books or constitutions because they conflict with science. Views on the origin or rights have changed, but I don't think that alters important principles. It was and is self-evident that we aught to have certain rights because we mutually desire and consent to them.

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Simple: I advocate that voters continue to elect presidents and senators who will nominate and confirm, respectively, judges that believe corporations are not people and money is not speech. Then I suggest someone bring a challenge through the legal process and get Citizens United and Buckley v. Valeo overturned. All perfectly in line with the legal process.

We could also pass an amendment, but that seems infinitely more difficult at this point.

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Thanks, Brad. Clear and concise. And I advocate accepting the decision as a proper one.

Can we agree that our positions are based on opinion?

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Phil, my opinion that natural rights theories rely on divinity is not pulled out of thin air at my whim. Its based on historical and legal scholarship which is too extensive to review here. I do agree that a social contract or "positive" basis for rights need not rely on divinity in any way. We grant each other our basic civil rights out of enlightened self-interest and mutual consideration (the ethic of reciprocity, or so-called "Golden Rule").

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Certainly.

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If a broad and balanced variety (a free & fair market) of information is available, as in a publicly financed and fairly run election process, each individual can be responsible for gaining information symmetry by self-education. When the information market is monopolized by powerful special interests, that can become improbable if not impossible. We must also guard against the state becoming a special, vested interest by voting wisely and often.

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Poor (I really wish you would identify yourself. Part of that is because the site owners required me to even post a front facial picture before they would consider publishing an article by me.) You bring up a very interesting idea.

There is actually a negative golden rule which preceded the positive one. That is "Do not do to others what you would have them not do to you." I believe such is the proper basis for government. Government then prevents someone from harming you or attempts to through punishment.

The positive golden rule can then be seen as the basis for social interaction. Do good things for someone if you believe that they should do the same for you.

Maybe that's another topic entirely.

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Phil, I think you are fashioning a straw man-- a false dichotomy between "every man for himself" and totalitarian censorship & mind control. I can't accept that. But we are all entitled to our opinions.

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Brad, I happen to disagree with the Court about the Declaration and the Preamble. The Court's position has too much to do with business and too little to do with happiness and the general welfare.

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Poor, I disagree that it is a strawman. Can you describe a document that would define a government built on your social contract theory?
What I mean is that our government foundation seems clearly to be an assumption of inherent rights that are to be secured by government. Consider the Ninth Amendment and read about it.
I cannot envision a written document that would begin with some statement about a social contract that we will define minute by minute. Can you help me with a description of how that could be done?

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But they don't provide any legal protections, they're just statements of belief. How do I sue someone because the "blessings of Liberty" were not "secure[d]"? Sure, even the substantive parts of the document are vague in certain instances. But at least they provide a basis for interpretation and adjudication. The preamble doesn't do that.

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Brad, I hope I did not give the impression that I thought either the Declaration or the Preamble to be things that were "legal" in the sense that suits could be brought on their bases.

What I intended to convey was that they are both documentary evidence that a certain basis existed for the formation of our present nation. And that the basis included inherent rights and a government dedicated to securing them.

As to legality, the Ninth Amendment is meaningless if not seen in that light.

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Phil, you must be aware we not only accept the possible necessity of revolution on principle but that our country began by such extra-legal means.

We are all picking both sides of the "original intent" vs "prevailing standards" argument when it suits our current values and sensibilities. I just think you are crossing that line at the wrong places.

We are each entitled to our opinions and I doubt if we can come to any closer agreement.

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Poor, you said, "I just think you are crossing that line at the wrong places."

Could you expand on that? There have been so many things written by three of us that I am failing to identify what you are specifically addressing.

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The 9th has a complicated rationale, crafted as a compromise between opposing theories and perspectives. We can't cover all that here. The fact that a majority agreed to an ambiguous number of un-enumerated rights argues against the finite, natural rights theory. Rights come and go with changing times, places and norms. History and anthropology prove this, despite each generation's belief in the wisdom and inerrancy of their own beliefs.

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Poor, I am unaware of any " finite, natural rights theory".

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Phil, you cite the earliest documents to defend natural rights, but agree with Brad that the rights to pursue happiness and provide for general welfare are archaic or impractical. For ages we normalized unfair treatment by race, sex, class, etc. and punished many victimless "crimes" while ignoring extreme harms and crimes done by business. We can and must sue on such grounds even though the courts are often on the side of misery and injustice.

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Phil, by " finite natural rights" I mean fixed, pre-determined, non-relativistic, enumerable, etc. set of rights. I think Brad first used the term and it made sense to me. Positive, civil rights may be finite in practice--but are infinite in potential future scope, variety, number, etc.

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Poor, I don't quite get the connection to the Constitution. Are you saying that the natural rights cited by the Declaration and carried over to the Constitution are enumerable?

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Poor, where did I agree with Brad that pursuit of happiness and general welfare are archaic or impractical? I believe that since they are contained in the Declaration and Preamble and not in the Articles of the Constitution they are not available as grounds for bringing suit.

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Poor, my view is this:
As an individual in the United States, I have the "natural right" to take any action or make any decision that is not proscribed by law.

Those actions and decisions are innumerable.

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Hey Phil, I would say, going back to the theory of rights, that you don't have a "natural right" by virtue of your status as an American. The notion of rights necessitates that human rights transcend borders, and therefore exist prior to the formation of government. It is impossible to define what a "natural right" is in a vacuum, ergo we develop civil rights as a social construct. If something is a "right" then everyone should enjoy it.

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Brad, you seem to be missing the fact that the United States is the only nation to have been founded on the basis of natural rights. That's why I said "as an individual in the United States".
If you would like other nations to be founded on the same principle then I would applaud that. But they are not.I completely agree that everyone, of whatever nation, should enjoy it. But they do not. Because their founders did not see it that way.

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That's not entirely true. During the French Revolution the National Constituent Assembly ratified the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. In 1789. This was an affirmation of the natural rights of all men, and served as the foundation for international law as far as human rights are concerned. Furthermore, many of the nations which sprouted in the 20th century drafted their constitutions on the basis of natural rights.

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Money influences politics. Some people have more money than others.

Allowing money in politics enables some to have a greater say in our government than others, QED.

Unequal voice in government is not democracy.

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The strength of an argument influences politics. Some people are better at making arguments than others.

Allowing people who are good at making arguments to express those ideas enables some to have a greater say in our government than others, QED.

Unequal voice in government is not democracy.

/sarcasm

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Really, Brad, and designed their constitutions to secure those rights? Could you cite an example or two? How are they working out?

Brad, look. You have been trying every way possible to dodge the fact that the US was the first nation to be founded on inherent natural rights that are not enumerable and are supported by a Bill of Rights that name a few specific rights and has the Ninth Amendment to take care of the rest.

I really believe we've done about all we can here.

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Constitution of the Republic of South Africa (1996). Constitution of India (1950). Constitution of the 5th Republic [France] (1958).

I prefer to do my research before I make general claims. And I'm not dodging anything. I do not believe that the founding principle was that there are natural rights that can't be enumerated. The nation was founded without a Bill of Rights, as I'm sure you know.

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And just because you believe that the country "was formed as a government devoted to the protection of our in-born fundamental rights to behave as we like and make our own decisions" doesn't mean everything you say is correct. It's as if you cannot bring yourself to admit to ANY flaws with our founding documents or stoop to discussing theoretical notions of rights.

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Brad, I apologize for my post made last evening. I was in a hurry and didn't self-edit as I normally do. That is not a valid excuse and I was wrong. I wish that I could erase the entire post and start over, but that is not possible.

That said, here goes my final reply on this article.

I maintain that what I have claimed about the founding of the United States is true, in that the principle of inherent rights included every action and every decision that an individual might take, unless the state proscribed it or them by law. And all such proscribing laws must be able to be justified on the basis that the proscribed action or decision would invade the rights of other individuals.
(contd)

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(contd)
If you wish to discuss theories of rights, you are free to do so with someone who is interested. I am not. And the reason I am not is because I believe that the written documents of the foundation of the United States clearly establish unlimited individual rights. I have already cited my reasons for that position and I have read no posts in this article causing me to doubt my position.

(contd)

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(contd)
As an aside, I called up the Indian constitution and read it. I was going to call up the others you cited, but there was enough in the Indian version to convince me that it is sorely lacking in securing individual rights.

Article 19, in part states a freedom of speech and expression. But in the second paragraph allows the state to make
(contd)

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(contd)
" any law, in so far as such law imposes reasonable restrictions on the exercise of the right conferred by the said sub-clause in the interests of the sovereignty and integrity of India, the security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality," etc.

In other words, the state can write any law, with any penalty, prohibiting any speech it deems to not be in the interests of the state.

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Phil your question might best be answered by the wisdom of great Biblical Leaders or Greek Scholars. In an era when the ability to control the "noise" bombarding society with partisan spin is at time deafening, limiting free speech presents its own potential hazards. Conversely pure luck in timing can net Voice reaching an audience of untold millions such as we are seeing with the OWS protest. Unfortunately, money still talks.

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1 Replies

  • Adam Prime 7 months ago The ancients have much to teach us....

The ancients have much to teach us. During the rule of Lycurgus, wealth inequality threatened to tear Sparta apart. The people initiated a land reform where each citizen was given an equally valued piece of land.

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Chris, an exceptionally well presented article. The quotes from the decision and the dissent are very appropriate.

I would ask a question of you, or whoever might be interested in responding. Suppose three people get together in order to comment on an issue. They pool their money and promote a book, buy time on TV, etc.

Should they be disallowed from mentioning a candidate (or whatever else was prohibited) in an ad that they buy on TV, or a book that they promote, simply because there are three of them instead of one?

Suppose their sum total of assets is overwhelmed by a single individual. What then?

My point is that disallowing speech is a very tricky business and should be done with extreme care. Or not done at all.

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5 Replies

  • Chris Kendall 7 months ago You might find this quote from the ...

  • Phil Sexton 7 months ago I do....

  • Poor Richard 7 months ago Mentioning a candidate in any kind ...

You might find this quote from the majority opinion interesting:

"Even if §441b’s expenditure ban were constitutional,wealthy corporations could still lobby elected officials,although smaller corporations may not have the resourcesto do so. And wealthy individuals and unincorporated associations can spend unlimited amounts on independent expenditures. See, e.g., WRTL, 551 U. S., at 503–504 (opinion of SCALIA, J.) (“In the 2004 election cycle, a mere 24 individuals contributed an astounding total of $142million to [26 U. S. C. §527 organizations]”). Yet certain disfavored associations of citizens—those that have taken on the corporate form—are penalized for engaging in the same political speech."

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I do.

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Mentioning a candidate in any kind of mass media is an in-kind contribution and calculating its monetary value is not rocket science. Political contributions can and must be limited to some reasonable amount that is "fair" across all demographics or "one man, one vote" becomes a farce.

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Phil,

I realized I never actually answered your question... It seems that the pooling issue described above would be handled by PACs rather than corporations. To put it simply, corporations exist for a corporate purpose, and PACs exist for a political purpose. Individuals may pool their money into PACs for the purposes described above.

It is also important to remember (although I didn't highlight this in my article), that Citizens United, and the statute at issue, were about political speech, the highest protected form of speech. If the pooling individuals want to engage in commercial speech, different rules apply.

As for the concern that small corporations would be drowned out, I don't have an answer for that.

Thanks,
Chris

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4 Replies

  • Poor Richard 7 months ago Jon, that doesn't go nearly fa...

  • Jon Awbrey 7 months ago Sure, it won't turn the tide, ...

  • Poor Richard 7 months ago Jon, I agree a little bit is better...

Jon, that doesn't go nearly far enough. All contributions, including in-kind, must be limited to some fair and reasonable amount for all entities, including individuals. Otherwise "one man, one vote" is a just a sham. I don't see any room for confusion on this.

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Jon, I agree a little bit is better than nothing, and the perfect is often the enemy of the good.

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Sorry, Poor (whoever you are, possibly a corporation or other entity masking as a real person), but who gets to decide "fair and reasonable"? Is $1000 fair? Wouldn't that disenfranchise a lot of people who might only be able to give $100? If you set the limit at $100, then you disenfranchise people who can afford to only give $10. Who do you trust to set the "fair and reasonable" amount? Congress? A bureaucrat appointed by the president?

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It doesn't matter, as long as the government can be used for rent seeking and granting special privileges, it will continue to be used as a mechanism to squash competition and acquire subsidies by those with money. Simple as that.

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4 Replies

  • Poor Richard 7 months ago Good point, James. Strict, fair, an...

  • Ken Strote 7 months ago Poor, the closest I believe you can...

  • Poor Richard 7 months ago Ken, transparency is necessary but ...

Good point, James. Strict, fair, and reasonable limits on lobbying and influence peddling, including in-kind transactions, whether by individuals or groups, are just as essential as limits on campaign contributions. Do we want a corrupt system or a fair and just one? Simple as that!

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Poor, the closest I believe you can come to a "fair and just" system is to have complete transparency. Arguing an ideal is one thing, but how do you make it work. We live in an imperfect world with imperfect people. You will not ever get people to play fair, but you can ensure that sunlight can disinfect Washington.

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Ken, transparency is necessary but not sufficient. In a ball game, the ref not only has to see an infraction--he has to act on it. We need rules for fair, honest, sportsman-like behavior that go beyond disclosure and transparency and we have to enforce them. In an imperfect world the perfect is often the enemy of the good, so the rules must be pragmatic. We can't always get everyone to play square in a ball game, but what if we didn't even try?

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Poor, who will be making the rules though? If the fox runs the hen-house, do you think he will make rules forbidding him from eating chickens or eggs? Or will he create loopholes for himself and his other friend foxes?

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Thanks Chris, excellent article - mic 'em up!

I have a question: Since corporate personhood was first put forth by a court clerk writing a preamble to a supreme court decision, doesn't it behoove the court to correct its own faux pas? How would you or I bring a case that would force this decision?

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5 Replies

  • Chris Kendall 7 months ago I wouldn't. The Supreme Court...

  • Darwin Long 7 months ago I wasn't suggesting that Citiz...

  • Jon Awbrey 7 months ago Better to do it by Constitutional A...

I wouldn't. The Supreme Court rarely overturns its opinions, albeit with a few notable and famous decisions (Brown reversing Plessy, for example). If you oppose the decision, it would be foolish to seek a judicial remedy, at least until the justices change significantly.

However, there are always other ways to craft laws. This would be a legislative remedy. Just because the particularly law at issue was overturned, there surely are other means of regulating "electioneering communications" within the Citizens United framework.

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I wasn't suggesting that Citizens United be overturned, I was hoping to have a judicial decision that corporations are not persons. In you opinion would that be a case that could be brought?

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Courts rarely like to make such grand proclamations. You would have to do a piecemeal attack, going after the various decisions cited in Citizens United. Of course, the best way to make such a statement would be to pass an amendment, as Jon Awbrey points out above. Of course, that would never happen.

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The majority opinion instrumentally left out calling a corporation a "person" -- which then, interestingly enough, expands the ascription necessary to be included within the First Amendment. We already see bankruptcy law providing remedies for insolvent persons and corporations. The questions is, to what extent will Citizens United and precedents alike, hold accountable a fiscally irresponsible major corporation? Can you say, bail out?

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I think this also very much a philosophical question as much as it is a legal one. Some people say that corporations should be considered as people because they are made up of people. They are nothing in themselves. A corporation is the product of a collection of people who invest time and effort for a higher thing, in this case the company.

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15 Replies

  • Jon Awbrey 7 months ago Since the people already count as p...

  • Hassan Mirza 7 months ago Hey Jon, Can you clarify your se...

  • Jon Awbrey 7 months ago I'm not sure what isn't c...

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Hey Jon,

Can you clarify your second statement? Thanks

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This is about freedom of speech. If you start censoring foreign companies, then you have effectively done the same thing as censoring foreign individuals.

Do you think its ok for the US government to censor foreign individuals just because they aren't US Citizens, Jon?

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Do you think it is ok for a foreign company, whose interests may be averse to those of the United States, to give money to American politicians?

You don't see any potential problems there? Like at all?

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Michael, this isn't about given money to politicians. This is about if the government can ban books, movies, and broadcasts.

I don't care what the purpose of the book, movie, or broadcast is, the government shouldn't ever be banning them.

The main purpose of the first amendment was to prevent the government from being able to silence descent.

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1. You didn't answer my question.

2. We're not talking about the right to read Catcher in the Rye or the right to preach Satanism here.

3. If money is truly speech, equivalent with books and movies as you're insisting, then why isn't bribery legal? Isn't that free speech too? Or prostitution? Or giving money to foreign groups such as terrorist organizations? Aren't these illegal acts simply the government censoring individuals? It's my money. Shouldn't I be able to distribute it as I please?

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"any broadcast, cable, or satellite communication that mentions a candidate within 60 days of a general election..." From the article.

Look at the original case and you will know that it was about if the government could ban citizens united from broadcasting their movie. The government was trying to censor a movie.

This isn't about donating money, or distributing money as you like. We have strict limits on that (due to some reasons that you mentioned, such as bribery, prostitution, ect). This is about the right to broadcast (which sometimes costs money). So yes, it can be about the right to preach, as that can cost money to.

Restricting money spent on speech, is the same as restricting speech as speech almost always costs money.

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The reason why Hilary can't sue is because she is a public figure, not because the movie was political. If the movie was about Lady Gaga, she wouldn't be able to sue either. Libel/slander laws are much more relaxed when concerning public celebrities.

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I agree with that argument, Hassan. That's why I make the point that contributions must be limited for all, corporations and individuals alike. Even if a corporation is counted as a person over and above the people who make it up, it should only be one extra person for the purpose of contributions.

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"In this landmark 5-4 Supreme Court decision, the Court held that the First Amendment protects corporate AND UNION funding of independent political broadcasts in elections."

Why isn't anyone out there asking whether unions are people? The hypocrisy is stunning.

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7 Replies

  • Chris Kendall 7 months ago Good catch. I bet there are many p...

  • Phil Sexton 7 months ago Not to be too cynical, but I haven&...

  • Gary W. Patterson, Jr. 7 months ago I've seen a lot of pictures of...

Good catch. I bet there are many people upset that unions are "people," probably even some Occupy Wall Street folks. However, Citizens United is just one of many things that they are upset about. The fact that the opinion benefits corporations (which it does), fits within the broader framework of the protests.

As for any alleged hypocrisy, I'd be careful lumping all of the protesters into the union or pro-union crowd. I don't think we know enough about the composition of the protesters.

Finally, not to sound too cynical, but it seems that those on the conservative end of the spectrum have weighed the costs and benefits and determined that the benefits to corporate speech outnumber the benefits to union speech.

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Not to be too cynical, but I haven't heard SEIU complaining about their right to free speech.

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I've seen a lot of pictures of the OWS crowd. The next time I see an anti-union sign will be the first. If you find one, I'd love to see it. Last I checked, the big labor folks were marching around w/ OWS last week?

As for your final point, I think conservatives simply want an even playing field. I don't hear any conservatives saying the unions don't have a right to spend money on political campaigns. We do point out the hypocricy from the other side flapping their gums about the corporate influence, while turning a blind eye to the millions pumped into Democratic coffers by the unions.

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I agree that some anti-corporate arguments are hypocritical. I don't think mine are--do you? The hypocritical arguments are not necessary to the case and should be discarded, but that doesn't change the conclusions that I shared in my previous comments.

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Phil, if money=speech, is speech still "free" in any sense? But IMO that isn't even the point. The value of speech needs to be weighed against the value of the vote if we want to call this either a republic or a democracy. The unions need to sit down and shut up, too.

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Richard, I understand your concerns, and appreciate the fact that you are even handed in your complaints against corp and union influence in gov't. That being said, I believe money is clearly a form of speech. What good is political speech if nobody hears it? If I want a particular candidate to win because I support his/her ideas, I could stand on the street corner shouting to the hills, but wouldn't reach nearly the same number of people as I would if I ran an ad in the local paper.

I would also note that spending $ isn't a guarantee of anything. The $'s aren't pulling levers in the booth. Also, I think the influence of $ will be on the decline thanks to the information tech revolution. Sites like this, FB, youtube, etc. . .

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Oh, I'm gonna get clobbered for this: I have heard it said - and there's probably a sign out there in Liberty Park saying it, too - "I'll accept that corporations are people when Texas executes one."

Thank you, Counselor Kendall, for as succinct an explanation of Citizens United as I've seen.

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