Free Fadi Quran: Palestinian Nonviolent Youth Activist Fadi Quran Arrested and Assaulted by Israeli Army [Updated]

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Fadi Quran, Israel, Palestine, Free Fadi Quran, Nonviolence, West Bank, Hebron

Free Fadi Quran: Palestinian Nonviolent Youth Activist Fadi Quran Arrested and Assaulted by Israeli Army [Updated]

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UPDATE X (2/27 9:20 AM)The Atlantic's Robert Wright gives a morning update of Fadi's sitaution: "Fadi Quran ... had his day in court today. It didn't go as well as I had hoped." He received an email from Israeli human rights activist Assaf Sharon, saying: "The hearing was held in the military court in Jerusalem. As usual, the security service presented a secret file to the court, to which Fadi's defense had no access. The judge saw the video but said that it does not prove that Fadi did not attack anyone prior to it (Palestinian = guilty until proven innocent). He will be detained until tomorrow when he'll appear in court again."

IX (2/27 7:34 AM): Great new profile of Fadi here in the Stanford Daily.

VIII (2/27 6:27 AM): According to a family member, Fadi has not been released after appearing before a judge early Monday. He is now being moved to Ofer detention facility, and he will have a second hearing tomorrow.

VII (2/26 6:28 PM): A new website has been created to advocate for Fadi: www.freefadi.org. Check it out. New story about Fadi here.

VI (2/26 1:27 PM): According to his family members, Fadi is being held in Moscowbya prison, not Ofer jail as previously reported.

V (2/26 7:23 EST): According to a family member, "We do not know much about him since his family is not allowed to see him or speak with him. His lawyer barely has access to him. As far as we know, his health is ok."

IV (2/26 6:25 EST): Fadi's trial has been postponed until Monday (2/27). It was originally scheduled for Sunday.

III (7:23 EST): Because of all your support, we've doubled the number of likes on the Free Fadi Quran campaign.

From Fadi's friend in contact with his lawyer: "It would be very helpful if this does not go down quietly. Mobilizing the Stanford community and his friends, maybe a wider letter campaign and mainly just getting the story out can all help connect people to the story whose support we might need later on to help Fadi."

READ and SHARE SHARE SHARE this story. Can we get to 1,000 LIKES by tonight? 10,000? 

He does not deserve to sit in prison!

II (6:02 EST): Here's a Change.org petition started by Lila Kalaf which everyone should sign: http://chn.ge/y1aksO

I (11:15 EST)According to Fadi's friend who is in contact with his lawyer: "He is indeed held in Ofer jail, which is the military jail where Palestinians are imprisoned. He should be brought to court on Sunday, charged with battering a soldier. We hope he will be released then. Fadi was pepper sprayed and then took a bit of a beating in the jeep (as is customary), but the lawyer who met with him last night says he is doing well."

Palestinian nonviolent youth activist, PolicyMic pundit, and my close friend Fadi Quran was violently assaulted and arrested in Palestine on Friday. Fadi, a Stanford '10 graduate from the West Bank, was arrested in Hebron for allegedly pushing an Israeli soldier according to activists in Palestine. 

Yesterday was his 24th birthday.

A video of the altercation (watch the full video here) shows Fadi visibly upset and gesticulating to Israeli soldiers, before being grabbed by multiple soldiers, pushed toward a police van, and pepper sprayed by Israeli security forces. Fadi's abdomen and head hit the rear bumper of the van, as soldiers attemped to put him inside of it. Quran is shown lying in the street behind the van in agony.

Quran could potentially spend months in prison without having charges filed against him.

I met Fadi on a trip to Ahmedabad, India, where we studied Martin Luther King, Jr., Gandhi, and nonviolence with a group of Stanford students on Gandhi's ashram. Fadi participated in the three-week academic seminar in order to learn concrete skills of nonviolent protest to take back to the West Bank. 

Fadi

Since graduating from Stanford with a double major in physics and international relations in 2010, Fadi returned to Palestine to work for an alternative energy company, study law at Birzeit University, and advocate for nonviolent resistance to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

TIME Magazine profiled Fadi in March 2011 and called him the "face of the new Middle East." In November 2010, he led a nonviolent bus protest (See photos here) modeled after the 1960s U.S. civil rights Freedom Riders to call attention to Israel's occupation and policies restricting Palestinians' freedom of movement. Fadi is an incredible person, a courageous activist, and living proof that Palestinians do, indeed, embrace nonviolence in their struggle against Israel.

Fadi

As Robert Wright wrote in The Atlantic, "the traditional Israeli narrative -- that the absence of a solution is the fault of the Palestinians, so they'll have to live with it -- is going to run into trouble if people like Fadi Quran have their way."

Fadi visited the PolicyMic headquarters in last summer and inspired us all with his story: 

On July 4th, I asked Fadi what our generation's revolutionary moment is. Here's what he responded: 

"Our generation’s 1776 revolutionary moment will come when we change the institutional and structural frameworks that govern our everyday lives to reflect the true meaning of justice. The American Revolution was revolutionary because a governmental institution was created to reflect the essence of freedom: that people should have to power to set and change the laws and regulations that govern their day to day lives. Justice, in its essence, means that all people have equal and indefeasible claims to basic liberties, that all people have an equal opportunity to pursue happiness and achieve it, and that the least-advantaged in society are not left behind and ignored. The true essence of justice has yet to be reflected in any existing system of government. Moreover, the current global system of institutions and international relations is unabashedly unjust. Nonetheless, a new dawn of revolutions is rising from the ashes of Tunisia’s Boazizi, and as the old regimes crumble the youth of that region are given an opportunity to create a system of government that epitomizes justice. If they succeed, then that will be our generation’s 1776 moment."


Please help free Fadi Quran and get him home safely. There's currently a Free Fadi Quran Facebook page with more photos and background on his story, LIKE it here. Use the Facebook SHARE button below to spread his story. 

Fadi lives by the famous Martin Luther King, Jr. quote: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Stand up against this injustice. 

Photo Credit: Fadi Quran

We do not know  much about him since his family is not allowed to see him or speak with him. His lawyer barely has access to him.  As far as we know, his health is ok.

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Jake Horowitz

As co-founder of PolicyMic, Jake is managing the writing and editing process and trying to spark thoughtful debate on important political issues....

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Manar Hijaz

Thank you so much Jake for bringining this to our attention. Fadi is lucky to have a friend like you. I actually recently read about the Palestinian Freedom Rides (a friend of mine actually participated in them) and I think it is absolutely amazing the work he has done. We need more nonviolent youth activists like Fadi Quran in Palestine and all over the world.

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The Discussion

Fadi has been released on bail. The struggle is not over yet, though...

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Oh, no, Jake! This is heinous! Good on you for keeping us updated. I hope there's jsutice for Fadi and safety for all the peace activists.

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Great article Jake! You are to be commended for doing an outstanding job of presenting a wealth information both on a professional and personal level. I'm sure your efforts in attracting attention by bringing awareness to this on-going struggle will serve Fadi Quran well. I hope he will be released soon.

It is tragic that some of mankind still resorts to such violence in its need to control and dominate.

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Thank you for sharing Jake. This is truly a sad story. I met Fadi in New Year last year. Such a great young man. Free Fadi!

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This is a regrettable circumstance.

If I may, I've found these references to be particularly helpful regarding the Arab-Israeli dilemma:

Fred Khoury's "The Arab-Israeli Dilemma"
Michael Oren's "Six Days of War" and "Power, Faith, and Fantasy"
Steve Posner's "Israel Undercover"
Dennis Ross' "The Missing Peace"
Avi Shlaim's "The Iron Wall"
and, for general background, anything by Karen Armstrong or Edward Said

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1 Replies

  • Jake Horowitz 3 months ago Also see William Quandt, "The ...

Also see William Quandt, "The Peace Process" as a very good primer on U.S. policy in the conflict.

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South Africa, anyone?

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5 Replies

  • Ben Poole 3 months ago http://www.genocidewatch.org/zimbab...

  • Yisrael Medad 3 months ago no. Palestine is not South Africa. ...

  • George Schieck 3 months ago It's more subtle than that, Ge...

http://www.genocidewatch.org/zimbabwe.html

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1 Replies

  • Georgi Ivanov 3 months ago Africa is going to be like this for...

Africa is going to be like this for a long time.

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no. Palestine is not South Africa. You couldn't be referring to Israel since we have Ethiopians, Sudanese refugees, 20% population non-Jewish, Arab MKS, etc.

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It's more subtle than that, Georgi, but likely with very similar intent.

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  • Georgi Ivanov 3 months ago I agree. The parallel is funamental...

I agree. The parallel is funamentally incorrect. However, there are some commonalities.

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I didn't realize that pointing was an arrestable offense. The Israeli Defense Force is constantly transgressing on the Human Rights of nonviolent pro-Palestinian supporters. The Israelis further demonstrate their inflated self-superiority when they place an unbalanced value of an Israeli life over Palestinians in a 1,000 to 1 inflation. Their treatment of Fadi Quran DEMANDS [non-violent] outrage from the world's supporters of free speech & press.

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I'm glad to see people publicizing this even in the Atlantic. Our USQuagmire discussion list, 440 members, is available for any updates on him.
Send to mhiver@earthlink.net
We require UNQUALIFIED support for the right of return for membership..consider joining!




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This is just further example of the Israeli Defense Force from offensively transgressing upon the Human Rights of innocent activists. Fadi Quran is a brave individual for putting himself on the front lines of the Humanitarian battle field. I applaud his efforts to bring peace through awareness of the events going on in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. I cannot wait until I am in Jordan this summer, so I can follow in Fadi's foot steps too.

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Tragic story. I hope that in his non-violent protest he works to convince his friends of Israel's right to exist and that nations who were supposed to provide territories for the creation of a Palestinian state will do so. I do hope for his release.

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40 Replies

  • Semma Qura'an 3 months ago If you believe that my brother'...

If you believe that my brother's release will be to promote "Israel's right to exist" then you are wrong and i do not hope for the release of any individual that fights for that ludicrous right. Educate yourself and do not spout normalized statements about issues you are obviously uneducated about.

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  • Jake Horowitz 3 months ago Semma, I think what Lev is trying t...

Semma, I think what Lev is trying to say is that Fadi's story can serve to re-invigorate people on both sides to do a better job moving toward the ultimate end goal, a two-state solution with a state of Israel and a state of Palestine. Words are charged and take on particular meaning in this conflict because they are rooted in history and struggle. Nonetheless, Lev raises this point to suggest there's more work to be done on both sides. I wouldn't dismiss him so easily.

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  • Semma Qura'an 3 months ago The idea of a "Two-State Solut...

  • Semma Qura'an 3 months ago Fadi and I support a one-state solu...

  • Ben Poole 3 months ago Unfortunately, that has never been ...

The idea of a "Two-State Solution" and "both sides doing a better job moving toward that ultimate goal" is absurd in practice. Israeli settlement has continued all over the West Bank for decades, relegating what could be a "State of Palestine" to Apartheid-like Bantustans.

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Fadi and I support a one-state solution where all individuals have human rights.

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Unfortunately, that has never been possible for reasons on both sides. It is codified in each religious text that it cannot be. Thus what you are attempting to propose goes against the faith that exists on both sides. What should have been asked is: Why do both texts have statements in them that are claimed to be "the word of God" that there are irreconcilable differences when both believe there is only one "God"? People can reconcile their differences. Those who place "the word of God" above people who have irreconcilable differences by definition can never be reconciled without one going against their faith

This is why I fight for separation of religion from governance. For religion in governance never can have peace and freedom for all.

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Semma,

I am sorry that you do not believe in a two state solution. I have worked and continue to work to uphold international institutions and international legal principles. The only way forward that I see is a two state solution for it is the only way to have a Jewish state. Likewise, I believe in the right of nations for self determination and that does allow for a two-state solution.

I am sorry for what your brother is going through and I will advocate for the release of any individual who supports a peace and does so within an accepted legal framework. I may disagree with him, but appreciate both his methods and his courage. However, I can not accept the disappearance of a Jewish state.

Best,
Lev

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Ben,

The separation of church and state is an essential component to a stable, peaceful, and democratic society. Unfortunately, Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion and the state of Israel was created to return a state to a minority religion and a minority ethnicity -- and it has done so.

Sadly, reconciling differences is easier when there are only two players with balanced sides. Israel has been used as a scapegoat for the tragic plight of the Palestinian people, while other nations in the region that were supposed to provide territories for a state did not do so. The same governments have used the plight as a way of controlling their populace. So, it is in very murky waters.

There must be mutual respect and tolerance.

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Lev,

Consider for a moment how absurd it sounds for you to suggest that a Palestinian constrain her profoundly just political demands to "an accepted legal framework" that is clearly failing to protect the basic rights of her brother at this very moment.

Best,
Jake

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Only flagged as coming from Jake. huh?

Lev is not absurd for it is correct though I do see your point of view from her standpoint. I would be very upset also. When one is upset, they tend to over react and not debate rationally. That in no way makes any excuse for the pain or the injustice of any situation but is fact.

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To ask an activist to advocate an international consensus position that he/she had no part in forming is to ignore the deeply held moral understanding that is the foundation of the Palestinian struggle. Fadi cannot promote a position that he does not believe just, and neither can his sister.

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Then how can Fadi or others expect understanding when the understanding is only one sided and not where truth avails itself. That is anathema to truth and fairness to both sides. I advocate the Palestinians should have a voice. But, only when their leadership abandons the 1988 charter of Hamas which calls for Israel's destruction. Only when there is peace then reconciliation can begin. To ask for statehood while maintaining a declaration of war against a neighbor is not rational nor proper. I do oppose Palestinian statehood until that stance is changed. So does the US and other countries.

To take the view if Arabs accepted Israel's existence in peace then there would be peace. To do otherwise is guarantees of continual conflict and war.

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If you find a way to give me more than 300 characters to respond, then ill give you an explanation as to you why are wrong.

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It is not a puzzle but simplicity in understanding basic fairness to both sides. To demand all is no different than Israel demanding all of the west bank. Both would be absurd. Equilibrium comes through a Palestinian state where Israel is not the occupier. That cannot come until the Palestinian people chose leadership which agrees to peaceful co-existence. Without guarantees of peaceful co-existence then the Palestinians are only bringing unfairness upon themselves. No Arab state would permit a Jewish area to be constantly attacking it or allow it to become a state. I am not saying Israel is right in all their actions but the main goal is alluding Palestine because of refusal of peaceful recognition. It cannot be expressed more simply.

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Ben is responding above to "The problem is that you view the conflict as a puzzle to be solved. You seek a theoretical equilibrium in which there is a sustainable balance between power and tolerability of injustice. Palestinians generally view it as a struggle for justice, a wrong to be righted."

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Post multiple times as I did when I was a rookie or anchor and even today sometimes as pundit. There is no prohibition. I would rather hear and engage in reasonable debate than you be limited by character count. I will await your multiple posts. I use (cont) at the beginning of or (to be cont) at the end of the preceding posts. What is important is thought and idea is conveyed.

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Dear Ben, I dont want to sound rude. But it seems to me your understanding of the conflict and its politics is only driven by mainstream news which is heavily skewed. On the issue of Hamas' charter - have you ever read a history of Hamas? Try Tamimi, Farrell and Edwards, or Roy. Do you know of the decade long cease-fires they have offered? I radically disagree with a lot of what Hamas does and says. But we need to get beyond this charter business. It distracts from actual politics of peacemaking.
You need to understand while this demand in principle is right - first peace then reconciliation, given how the Israeli state operates they violate terms of a cease-fire regularly. To only ask Palestinians to abide by it is not being fair at all.

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Jacob (or Jake now I understand its not PM Jake)

Justice is to be fair. Hamas is not struggling for justice as long as they call for Israel's destruction. There is no fairness in their statement: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." That is Fascism by religion and so wrong as needing to be destroyed. That is a fact. It is no different than the "Final Solution" with the only thing different being replacement of Islam with WWII Germany. That is anathema to everything I believe in regardless of race, religion, or country and considered an international war crime against humanity. Do you agree?


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Omar,

We may disagree upon this. But when I stated the aggressor who sheds innocent blood regardless of side is wrong you agreed. Then it holds here as well regardless of historical reasons. It doesn't matter if it is Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, Britain, or others conquering the land. Once conquest has occurred and war is finished and peace restored even if not fully peaceful then the matter is settled. That the way the world works. Life is not fair. Men's justice is but what we can conceive in our hearts as fair if the roles are reversed. 1967 changed the borders. I don't care what Obama says (most of the time actually). If peace is demanded before genocide is off the table, then whoever proposes such is wrong.

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I am committed to the rule of law and in this case even rules of engagement. The question that is being raised is the one that has been asked for generations in free societies: what do you do if the law is unjust? So, my statement is not absurd and I do not know what you do when it comes to international relations and the possible injustice of the law. Ideas?

A return to dialogue is desperately needed to focus on creating a state for the Palestinian people. Concessions can be made to a functioning state, for otherwise history will continue to repeat itself.

When I ask for recognition of Israel as a Jewish State, I ask for an agreement in principle not when it comes to current borders, for we need to start to negotiate.

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Ben I am in agreement innocent blood should not be shed. But u need to understand that to make peace it is not only Hamas that needs to be behave. For example, their government is not recognized but then they are held responsible for other groups fire rockets and then their leaders further marginalized. Like I said we can agree with the principles but it useless to sit here and say things like Hamas needs to change its 1988 charter. Follow their history and interviews with their leadership you will realize that this focus on the charter plays into the hands of the biggest bully on the block. I am not justifying Hamas, I am trying to talk to you as a friend and saying please dont be simplistically moralistic - understand the complexity. pax

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Lev,

I have thoughts on the unfairness of the UN. But the UN is unfair in its characterization of Israel as the worst offender of human rights when Saudi Arabia and other countries have far worse records. So, the UN is unfair as the Palestinians would agree with in the US blocking statehood and other veto's (some of which are entirely unfair against Palestine but not all). To me, the UN is an just an excuse the superpowers use as their disposal. Thus, international law is greatly suspect in fairness not just from a US viewpoint but look at Syria with China and Russia blocking (though actually I agree with China on their assertions that causing civil war would inflame the region). There is no solution to justice when it only has one view.

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Ben,

You are absolutely right. This is the primary argument against such an institution. However, it does provide a flawed mechanism of conflict resolution and establishment of a state. Certainly it is often used to assert the supremacy of already powerful nations, but it does serve to shame the positions of governments when they are inconsistent.

At this time, upholding the law must be a starting point to building respect and leading to a dialogue. When it comes to justice, there are many paths to attain it, but the aim must be absolute.

Have a great evening!

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Omar,

I also am respecting you as a friend. Agreed on much but not Hamas not abandoning genocide regardless of history. Hamas took the territory by force as in conquerors. They have a responsibility to rule or they abdicate rule. They must control or they do not rule. It appears they now understand this though occasionally use it as an excuse. Most are now inline with Hamas as ruler. But that is not the entire Palestinian people. It is almost ridiculous to have a state separated by another state without connection just as the original borders of Israel were ill conceived in its inception with some only a few miles wide with enemies on both sides. It may be 3 state result. The only thing that does make it complex is bitterness on all sides

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Ben - I am NOT trying to talk about Hamas in general. I am specifically focused on your emphasis on the charter. Anyway, maybe I am not making myself clear. As with most of my comments I will end with some books on the topic of Hamas. pax

http://www.amazon.com/Hamas-Civil-Society-Gaza-Princeton/dp/0691124485/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330295910&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Hamas-History-Within-Azzam-Tamimi/dp/1566568242/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330295944&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Hamas-Resistance-Movement-Beverley-Milton-Edwards/dp/0745642969/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330295966&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Hamas-Politics-Democracy-Religion-Violence/dp/0231700458/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330296027&sr=1-

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A one-state solution would be feasible if there was a way to enforce the law equitably amongst all residents (3rd party administrator?).

A two-state solution becomes more feasible if Jerusalem is designated as an international city (and administered by a 3rd party).

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why go beyond charter? why fool ourselves? why fool others? the Charter is what is Hamas - a terrorist group, racist, uncompromising, religiously fanatic, and what not. oppresses it own people and loves to kill Jews.

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How did we end up having a discussion about Hamas under an article about a devoted non-violent activist who has, by definition, chosen to use a totally different method of resistance? The relevant discussion here is about his goals.

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Ben's position appears to be that Fadi is failing to recognize the "justice" of the existence of a Jewish state, but the assumption that there is anything just about an ethnically defined state is precisely what Fadi (I believe) takes issue with. (cont.)

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well, I suggested that no real non-violent movement can exist and even those attempted (Awad; Kuttab) were covers for the real 'resistance' & weren't really non-violent (but included acts of destruction). And until someone brings me proof of denouncement of Hamas aims & actions, as an Israeli, I would assert my right to be extremely circumspect about intentions.

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...Fadi is struggling, according to his sister, for all of historic palestine to be a single democracy under which all peoples are recognized as equal under the law, irrespective of gender, ethnicity, or religion.

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Yisrael is essentially suggesting that no Palestinian movement can be non-violent unless all are non-violent, which begs me to ask if he is at all familiar with the context surrounding every other non-violent movement in history (or at least the big ones).

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thank you. that translates as the elimination of Israel & the denial of Jewish nationalism in any form. no wonder he should be under arrest no matter how "non-violent" he is. his political goals and philosophy are violent. 20+ Arab "nations" can have states; Yugoslavia can break up into 5+ states. there's now Czecho & Slovakia states. But Jews? A state? Thje first people to define and identify true nationalism? i knew this was a fine site

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1. I do not believe that Fadi has offered his opinion on nationalism in the bulkins, and therefore I see no inconsistencies
2. None of your example's involve a resolution in which one party is essentially given the right to determine, in its entirety, the others national claims
3. Wait 4 me to cont

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3. The fact that you think "he should be under arrest no matter how 'non-violent' he is" is precisely the reason Palestinians have no faith that their rights will every be fully respected under an officially Jewish political system.
4. The destruction of a ethnically tiered political system is ...

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Not "all". But the nature of the movement from its launching (well, even when it was part of the Southern Syrian hypocrisy - http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2010/05/palestine-or-southern-syria.html) was violent in practice and in its target. And at this very moment it still is: in its language, its preaching, its media, schoolbooks, rockthrowing, accusations of poisoning, etc. Psychologically - disturbed character of a movement.

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... not at all the destruction of the people who live under that system.

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So you think its illegitimate for Palestinians to have felt profoundly threatened by an exclusively Jewish nationalist movement in their territory? (and Jews and Arabs got along quite well before Arabs became widely aware of Zionism in the 1910s) Meanwhile, you are clearly threatened by a totally...

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...open nationalist movement promoted through non-violence. And if you think ethnic groups do have the right to make national claims, then why are you actively stifling the most desperate of Palestinian claims by living an ideological settlement in the heart of the West Bank?

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Thanks for sharing this Jake. Fadi sounds like a wise and amazing guy, hope that he makes it out of this ok. Please keep us posted.

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What the Palestinians should have been doing all along -- non-violent resistance. It beat the British, it beat Bull Connor. If you conditions are truly unconscionable, protest non-violently for change. That is what the Likudniks fear more than anything . . . not some suicide bombers.

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@Yisrael Medad my brother does not help halt the rock throwing. He opts for another type of resistance aimed at the ISRAELI OCCUPATION. Get your facts straight. stones are not the equivalent of the tear gas, skunk, sound bombs, rubber and live bullets and illegally used pepper spray the IOF use

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  • Ben Poole 3 months ago Does't matter. Bullets, stones...

Does't matter. Bullets, stones, rockets pouring over the border. Always masked. If you want peace, start at home and be guiltless of conduct of violence. Reconcile and not teach ethnic cleansing of Jews before your brother starts talking and accusing about ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. We have seen Jihad fighters in Darfur that do ethnic cleansing. They kill all, men, women, and children. Israel doesn't do that. Maybe then Ghandi strategies and Martin Luther King movements may come closer to applying. They drew on 'god' as strength not Allah Akabar BOOM! As of now, the images we see are not non-violent and a march to tear down a wall or challenge a checkpoint are no where near the same non-violence as riding in a bus as Rosa Parks did.

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  • Omar Shaukat 3 months ago Ben I quite often read your comment...

  • Alexandra Marie 3 months ago @Ben Poole-- take the time to watch...

Ben I quite often read your comments closely. And on many issues you have a nuanced understanding and I have learnt from you. But on this I must respectfully disagree. Some points I'd like to make in disagreement:
1. Why this linking of Fadi's story and his sisters response to Jihadists in Darfur?
2. Instead of paying attention to non-violent elements in the Palestinian struggle, laying the responsibility for violence on those who are non-violent and asking them first speak to other violent Palestinians really misunderstands the dynamics and the asymmetric balance of power of this situation.
3. Israel doesnt kill men women and children? Where were you in Dec 2008?
4. For state of Israel's ethnic cleansing read historians like Benny Morris

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  • Ben Poole 3 months ago Omar, Today I am attacked from a...

  • Ben Poole 3 months ago 3) Israel is wrong in what they do ...

  • Omar Shaukat 3 months ago Ben I hope you understand I am not ...

Omar,

Today I am attacked from all sides. I am attacked by liberals. I am attacked by moderate Muslims to my dismay. I am attacked by others who are idiots. You should see my inbox. I am not complaining but explaining. To answer your points.

1) Intolerance is intolerance. It is the same regardless of reason. Perhaps there are some who are mercenaries. Perhaps not. Is the end result any different. Intolerance has its own reward including my wrath.

2) Do you really think that will work? It never has in the history of Islam to my understanding. I've never seen moderates speak up and solve any internal Muslim issue. But, they attack those outside of Islam. Please prove me wrong for that would be a sincere delight to have a fresh perspective

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3) Israel is wrong in what they do as you allude. I am not defending Israel. You should know me better. I came in because it was one sided and not telling the whole truth. The whole truth I would rather stay out because it is Jake's deal and article. I and Jake are having issues at present. He's losing in my mind but not his. But that is our issue.

4) I will not condone Israel's ethnic cleansing anymore than I will others in Islam and from the Palestinians that also call for Israel's destruction and killing of all. Indiscriminate missiles make all points mute on the Palestinian side when they kill women and children as well or bus bombs or Munich, etc. There is a long history of hate. I want to stay out. There is no good either side.

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Ben I hope you understand I am not attacking you.

1. And dont equate everybody who is violent and Muslim as having the same reasons for being violent. I am not saying the Jihadists in Darfur are mercernaries and not Muslim. Thats simplistic. Rather, I am saying if you want to compare the situations - look at both similarities and differences.

2. You are generally so critical of MSM otherwise should seriously reconsider its representations of all things Islamic. For the non-violent tradition look at this: http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Means-Peace-Understanding-Nonviolence/dp/0313382905

3 and 4. Good we both agree - those deserve to be condemned should be condemned (I cant comment on the problems between you and Jake :)!)

Have a good night!

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Also last thing I should add before I sleep - we have gone off on a discussion of Muslims, Islam, the Israeli state, IDF and violence. The main thing, I think, is to remember that Fadi is an individual, and his sister was reacting to somebody else on the comments list.

The least we can do is show concern for them as individuals and a family - discussions of Islamist violence, Hamas, suicide bombing etc are really secondary. Maybe you dont agree with me, but anyway I thought I should just emphasize the human element before the "religious or political" factor.

pax.

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Thank you Omar. You have previously earned my respect. I do not take offense. Nor do I wish to offend Islam. I do wish to attack the attackers and those who treat as idols of books that which is forbidden even under the guise of respect for the Quran. Truth is truth.

I agree with the principles of peace. I am a warrior for truth and to rip aside lies. This is not to you. Nor in some instances with those I debate. But I will always state that I should not be involved any more than any US citizen who is not Muslim should be involved in internal Islamic issues of internal jihad or external jihad strictly within Islam. When the external jihad to conquer shows its ugly head it will be severed. In that you have nothing to fear

Tusbah ala Khair

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Here I will just say Ben, that I respect your opinions and value your contributions, and am not sure why you see this as a "winning vs. losing" debate. We are having a discussion, one which is particularly heated because it is Israel-Palestine and all things Israel-Palestine are that way, and because I have a close connection to Fadi. But I wouldn't think of this as winning vs. losing, as we aren't doing the fighting nor should we be competing to win the battle of ideas.

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Thanks Ben - btw, I am Pakistani-American. While I can understand Arabic, in Pakistan we speak Urdu. If you wanted to say good night Urdu you would say Shab ba Khair (which is used among all Persian influenced cultures).
As for Islam and Muslims - your worries about external jihad are pretty obvious. I would just add, please be more nuanced & please stop putting everything Islamic in the same basket. That unfortunately hurts many a victims whether they be Kashmiris or Palestinians or something else. This is not to say there are not violent and ugly elements among Muslims - but you must realize that is a very small part of the story. To constantly focus on them and ignore the rest - peacemakers and victims - only empowers them further. Pax!

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Thank you Omar. I didn't realize you speak Urdu. I will remember and humbly stand corrected. How does one become more specialized in Islamic nuances without having lived there? I don't with to put all in the same basket so after study I have come to a broad conclusion that jihad of a personal war within oneself to correct ones own conduct is proper and that of external jihad to conquer others and force or coerce others to believe as wrong. Yes?

This is core to determination of right and wrong. Of unintentional harm vs premeditated harm, this is how I see this action playing out. Whose side should I take? I will take the side of right even if by mistake they did act. Those who spilled innocent blood are wrong be it either side. Yes?

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Jake,

The winning and losing has to do with fighting and killing vs peaceful solutions. I fight with words not with shedding of blood. I fight against one sided views attempting to bring the discussion back to center. I do believe that there should be no spilling of blood. I have no love for any police force or their methods regardless of government or religion. In this, it is sad for your friend and his sister. That I cannot help. I want the US to stay out and let the sides work out their differences. Fighting will eventually be shown to be useless by both sides. They can never be together as long as they are separated by religion which is in direct conflict. They can live side by side. I care less about mics or praise. May truth be known

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Dear Ben, indeed - Yes and yes!
Inshallah (God willing) one day you will be able to take a trip to some Muslim majority country. Until then you can read books, websites, associate with Muslims in your area (go to a near by mosque for example, and I am sure if you express interest they will invite you to their events). I could recommend some heavy duty books on Islamic law, theology ethics etc but I think something of a basic survey of various Muslim attitudes is a good beginning point - such as Esposito's Future of Islam.
Also, you might benefit from knowing some prominent Muslim leaders in the US
1. Google/Youtube - Hamza Yusuf & Yasir Qadhi
2. Websites like - altmuslimah.org & drumnyc.org
& let me know if I can help further. Pax!

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And to appreciate the tensions that Muslim-Americans experience - listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YJhqHmnlOM

The same Hamza Yusuf on the theme of Justice: http://inpursuitofjustice.wordpress.com/2007/10/06/must-see-hamza-yusuf-at-isna-2007/

To see how a prominent Muslim leader deals with the situation in Syria - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTQHumyN5kM&feature=related

And please keep in mind the larger point - religion is not fixed and static. All we have are sources, Muslims trying to understand those sources with their different understandings, their various concrete circumstances. Some interpret X as the best position, some interpret Y. They disagree and/or fight with each other as they do with non-Muslims.

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@Ben Poole-- take the time to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wad5h5K38ms

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1 Replies

  • Ben Poole 3 months ago Alexandra, Mic for truth. I am n...

Alexandra,

Mic for truth. I am not one sided in this but am in the middle. If you knew me, you would think I take on the whole world for the whole world is divided. If this was a one sided Israeli discussion, I'd be accused of being anti-Zionist. The truth is in the middle not belonging to either side when both sides shed innocent blood.

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I hope he will have success in halting Muslim rock-throwing incidents aimed at Jews and Christians on the Temple Mount (even on a Friday when Jews are not permitted to enter) or on Jews praying down below at the Western Wall.

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92 Replies

  • Rokaya Milbes 3 months ago I also hope he will have success i...

  • Manar Hijaz 3 months ago Yes, lets hope. And I hope we have ...

  • Semma Qura'an 3 months ago @Yisrael Medad my brother does not ...

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  • Yisrael Medad 3 months ago for sure. and as for not-so-innoce...

for sure. and as for not-so-innocent Arabs, what then? http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/the-third-intifada-is-here/2012/02/25/

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  • George Schieck 3 months ago And as for not-so-innocent Israelis...

And as for not-so-innocent Israelis, what then?

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Yes, lets hope. And I hope we have success at halting the denial of Muslims to pray in the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa mosque on Fridays who are faced with bullets and not rocks.

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  • Yisrael Medad 3 months ago the Muslims throwing the stones in ...

the Muslims throwing the stones in fact were in the Temple Mount and even fled in to the Mosque of El-Aksa so what "denial of Muslims to pray" are you referring to? If they had been praying instead of fantasizing that Jews are invading, which they weren't, maybe nothing would have happened.

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  • Semma Qura'an 3 months ago "Fantasy that Jews are invadin...

  • Semma Qura'an 3 months ago please do not embarrass yourself an...

  • Yisrael Medad 3 months ago Now, now. Be careful with that rac...

"Fantasy that Jews are invading" is unfortunately not a fantasy -- it's reality.
http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=462853

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please do not embarrass yourself any further by speaking of a conflict about which you are not aware/educated. You are a racist.

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Now, now. Be careful with that racist card. Some people may not know how racist the proposed "state of Palestine" is to be. For example, no Jews allowed: http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2012/02/proof-of-palestine-as-apartheid-state.html. Tsk, tsk.

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Why would you focus on the "State of Palestine" that the US and Israel will never allow to exist (which is a basic denial of self-determination - a right that Zionists seem to claim only exists for themselves)...

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When you could focus your criticism on the actual State of Israel that has occupied the Palestinian people for 40 years, dehumanizing, torturing, imprisoning, and denying basic human rights?

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Your condescending elitist “Tsk tsk” is typical of the Orientalist mindset. So quick to judge any action by a people resisting colonialism as unjust, without looking in the mirror and seeing that the root cause of the problem is the colonial project in the first place (i.e. Zionism).

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no, my "tsk, tsk" is simply my Jewish roots showing. Orientalism is fake academic imagery created by an Arab at Columbia University. Jews are not colonialists in their own country, one conquered by foreign invaders, Arabs, who subjugated the Jews who managed to remain in the country.

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Yisrael and Semma, let's keep our comments focused on the issues, and not on one another. Since we don't know each other personally, don't know each other's motivations, charging racism is inappropriate. That said, you should and have every right to have a legitimate disagreement on the conflict and issues themselves.

Other thing I would add here is to caution both of you to see this thread as a good example that both sides have deeply felt pain, there has been wrongdoing on both sides, and both sides have a claim to history and "the facts," so its complicated and we should avoid speaking in a way that assumes one side is only 100% right without a shade of gray. This kind of approach inflames more than helps.

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Fine by me. I repeat: at the present, I view attempts at so-called non-violent activity to be a facade that hides the true Arab goal which is a denial of Jewish nationalism - anywhere in what an Arab would call "Palestine". The real intentions are easy to find: they're broadcast and acted out.

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How can you then ignore the true goal of Zionism, particularly the settler movement, of ethnic-cleansing historic Palestine of Palestinians (Arab Muslim and Christian) residents?

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Yisrael, that is pleasant literary fiction. Religion will do all of us a big favor when it finally ceases to glorify/sanctify (certain) geography. The country of Israel is only there because the UN said it could be. Israel's continued theocratic govt is not doing itself (or anyone else) any favors, and the current status quo where Israel constantly seeks to establish more facts-on-the-ground is not sustainable long term. Israel must find & adopt another approach.

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I don't know if you are intentionally trying to provoke here, Yisrael, to elicit a response, but you simply cannot get away with making a blanket statement about "the true Arab goal" or try to speak for all Arabs. This approach is offensive, but also methodologically unsound. How could you ever prove such a thing? You can't and therefore it doesn't contribute to the debate. It's based on heresay or your own emotions, but not on facts.

Statements like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's are despicable and get a whole lot of attention, but they don't speak for all Arabs. To the contrary, I think you would find if you ask Fadi, or many Palestinians and Arabs across the world, they would tell you that they don't deny Jewish nationalism, they just deny the way the Israeli government is holding onto the status quo and want Palestinian nationalism too.

Regarding nonviolence, I'm disappointed on your view here. I say the same thing here that I told Ben earlier. First, you're upset because Palestinians are "violent" and use suicide bombings. You want a Palestinian Gandhi. Then you have Palestinian nonviolent activism, and you're saying it's actually just a front and you don't want that either. What do you want, then?

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Not trying to provoke. I am a democrat and since the vast majority of Arab actions & speech for 90 years until this very day has been negative, violent, delegtimizing Jewish nationalism, et al., I stand by my statement and brought proofs in my comments from the last year. I do want Arab Gandhi ...

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...but am obliged to point out the fiction that the talk of non-violence from Awad to JKuttab to today is real and "popular". Despite all the input from "internationalists", non-violence doesn't work as a system up until now (including assassinating its proponents - Mor in Jenin). Keep trying, tho

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I guess the answer is (a) if Arabs hadn't launched terror & tried to quash the state the UN recommended, nothing would have happened and (b) who ethnically-cleansed whom in Hebron, Gaza, Nablus in 1929, Gush Etzion. Atarot, Old City Jlm, etc. in 1948? Yes, Arabs ethnically cleansed.

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If I recall, Russia tried to get rid of religion and with communism all was just grand. Logical thinking. Moderate policy actions. Considered public discourse. Need I go on? Oh, give back to Japan its islands! Who needs glorified geography? What should Turkey do in Cyrpus? We could go on & on

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Yisrael, the future is not going to be resolved by historical litanies. Rather, the future - if there is to be a sustainable path for all - must be met on its own terms. Yet Israel stubbornly not only clings to the status quo (which is not sustainable), but continues to tighten the screws via new & more facts-on-the-ground with each passing year. If Israel does not find a more equitable path, then almost certainly - whether right or wrong - Israel will be sowing the seeds of its own demise.

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You know Iranians and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are Persian, right? A completely different race than Arabs....

I have devised the easiest way to describe the Arab-Israeli conflict:

They're just arguing Semitics...

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Haha that's a good one. And yes, of course I realize the difference between Arabs and Persians. I was using him as an example of the denial of Jewish nationalism mentality.

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George,

I must point out that Israel is not a theocracy. They have always had Arabs in the uni-cameral Knesset. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset.

There is no state forced religion only recognition that Israel is a Jewish and democratic state. It does allow freedom of religion including no religion. The head of state is not the head of a religious body. Far different than Iran which is a theocratic state though called a republic.

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Sorry but I am not a "Peace Now" person, with emphasis on the "now". If someone in the past and in the present (take Abbas' statement today on Jerusalem) consistently assumes a negative and denouncing and violent position on Jewish nationalism, Jewish rights and also denies the historical record of its own actions and ignores its own faults, no peace, no compromise is possible not because of Israel but 'cause its own intractability. Understand ?

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Totally unrelated, Yisrael. You enjoy fallacies, which is regrettable. Jewish claims to the Eastern Med as "their" country are due entirely to scriptural and or literary/historical references, with Judaism (i.e. religion) at its core. The claims are NOT based, legitimately, on sustained habitation/control of the region. Had it not been for those literary (& now fictional) foundations, it would have made just as much sense for Israel to seek a location in South America, or perhaps New Jersey. And, BTW, if security is the primary concern, then these or other alternative geographic options make much more sense than provoking the hornet's nest in and around Jerusalem.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

Gentlemen, the question already has an answer. Ironically, Stalin put it together.

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Ben,

Israel is very much a theocracy. Those who say otherwise are playing with semantics.

Israel is a "Jewish State". Its raison d'etre is to be a Jewish homeland. Hence there IS a right of return for any/all Jews (who have never lived there before), while there is NOT a right of return for those (non-Jewish) persons who did in fact already live in that location. If you reside there, but aren't Jewish, then you're essentially a 2nd class citizen; the democratic parity Israel claims is a fiction.

The foundational criteria of Judaism is a special relationship to deity, along with its Temple centrality, kosher requirements, etc.. Judaism is a religion, it is not - primarily or centrally - a culture. Hence Israel is a Theocracy.

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You do realize that the classification of 'Jewish' is one of theology as well as race, right? You can be an ethnic Jew & Muslim or Atheist. In fact, estimates put the secular & nonreligious percentage of the Ethnically-Jewish population in Israel at around 50%.

The form of government they have is a primarily a Parliament with a shared presidency. By no means do they refer decisions to theological-religious authority more than a Christian POTUS.

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What I understand, Yisrael, is that the state of Israel is insisting on maintaining something that is not maintainable/sustainable. Israel wants the impossible, and will therefore not be able to achieve it.

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Nolan,

There are different forms of theocracy just as there are very many different forms of democracy.

The "race" or cultural identity of Judaism is due to a religious decision, when the Rabbis decided that any child of a Jewish mother was also therefore Jewish, regardless of other circumstances/criteria. That decision was made to maintain identity away from the Temple and to avoid the impacts of diaspora and assimilation. Ironically, a "secular religion" was essentially created, where it's still possible to be Jewish while not being traditionally religious, or even while being an atheist. Which, BTW, is how I believe all religious faith groups will eventually grow & evolve into.

Meanwhile, Israel is absolutely a theocracy.

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Interesting, Georgi, although I think that Stalin's alternative was just that, rather than an "answer". An "answer" would have to emerge from within Judaism itself, or perhaps even from within Zionism (which BTW was not always focused on Jerusalem).

Stalin's JAO or Oblast strikes me as consistent with the Gulag structure: out-of-sight, out-of-mind, yet still controlled & confined. Perhaps even like a Ghetto. Insofar as those Jewish residents were removed from the heart of culture and economics, Stalin didn't do them any favors; I wonder if Marx would have agreed (since he was also Jewish)?

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The historical context of Stalin's time does presuppose that the territory was indeed out of sight, out of mind. However, it does address a key question - a territoiral solution for disparate populations of Jews in Europe, the USSR and elsewhere. The contemporary practices notwithstanding, the territory survives as a jurisdictional unit, and today, it is largely free to choose its course of development - granted, within Russia. Yet, the religious, cultural and linguistic rights of the Jews there are preserved.

As per your earlier point, it makes far more sense geographically than where Israel currently is from a security perspective.

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Yisrael,

I could care less about Abbas other than today and tomorrow. But on history if you wish to live in the past, then become it. For you will be required to repeat it and you know that of which I speak or you do not know. If you don't know then you need to learn what this means "I desire mercy and not sacrifice" and which book it comes from and the ending thereof to be wise to know.

Either way, I reject those who speak of history beyond 1967 for that is all there is. Otherwise, neanderthals have a superior claim. Claims based upon religious heritage are mute except for those who can predict the future from the beginning. That is so easy unto the destruction of mankind based upon religion to separate the word of truth once known.

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George (response to "Totally unrelated")

I wouldn't go so far as to say "fictional" nor would any other place be correct. I though you were learned in the subject even if you can't see what I see. In that, you have fully rejected which is your prerogative. I do not reject Yisreal in that regard for truth is truth. But what many think they want results in a rude awakening of that which they receive.

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Interesting! Thank you, Georgi.

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Georgi,

Stalin deserves that which all those he has slain will give him. If you don't believe that then believe his statue being torn down and people cheering. That is real and not even close to what I believe which is of no one else's regard. No it didn't work there. A homeland is home. Nothing else comes close. In that, if Yisrael had spoke, I would have agreed. Yours is an uncompromising compromise which is totally irrelevant to today as none will move. Besides, PM will not let me say what I really think of Stalin.

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George,

Read the declaration of Israel. Read the documents from the beginning after WWII till today. Look at the court rulings. Yes, they have a Jewish character and stated objective. This is the reason for their "apartheid". Yet, they are required under today's law and historical religion to respect those who are strangers in their land. Those who live there do vote and can hold office. Do you think that occurs in Iran?

Immigration policy is theirs and I understand their reasoning is also to promote a Jewish homeland. If those who live there who are not Jewish migrate away, you are correct there is no right of return. That is those who move choice. I don't concur with 2nd class citizen but prejudice exists. Not a definition of Theocracy.

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Ben,

You forget that Stalin won the war. Without him, there might be no Jews left to speak of - but that is the smallest detail. As a politiican, he remains in a class of his own. The average Russian would understand why Stalin is such a complex figure, but you and I can't, because the historical experience of that country in fighting a total war of annihilation and survival is absent from the narrative of all other countries, in terms of scale, complexity and duration.

This is why your opinion of Stalin is bound to be uninformed and elementary, whatever it is.

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Georgi,

"As per your earlier point, it makes far more sense geographically than where Israel currently is from a security perspective."

To make this statement is not to have any understanding of Judaism or Zionism. Home is where the heart is. Security is that which one makes themselves for there is nothing secure in this world. No one is more ruthless to protect their own than the master of the house. Break in my home and you die without qualm. Something Palestinians don't understand but should as they certainly understand it when IDF breaks down doors.

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Ben,

If you're speaking of scripture, there is much within sacred literature that can be interpreted in many different ways. Even historical references are contextual. To superimpose/translate millenial old literature into contemporary real estate deeds, especially when occupancy is not a factor, is quite a trick. Israel is there because the UN placed it there. Zionism initially considered diverse locations; there is nothing inevitable about Israel's current location. The ultimate logic of the final geographic choice, along w/subsequent non-stop efforts to create "facts-on-the-ground," while all of that is occurring within a demographic sea that can only be ultimately disadvantageous, is - all things considered - an astonishing leap.

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Georgi,

This is just a snapshot (some people hate I reference wikipedia but its easy. A real answer and reading I have done)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

That is enough for me to know someone who is drenched in innocent blood. Stalin was a backstabber. First for Germany and then against (don't blame him there because Hitler betrayed first). But over 1 Million Germans were captured and slaughtered. Which is nothing compared to what he did to his own people. Or after the war in the Katyn massacre. As I stated - PM will not let me express my true opinion of Stalin for the expletives would reach beyond my character limit.

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3000 years span the last time there was an Israel and today's incarnation of it. What heart and home do you speak of? If you're a Russian Jew, you're Russian.

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George, (If you're speaking of scripture...")

If you don't know you don't. I can't explain it if you can't hear the rain or see that which is unseen. It is not to the learned but to those who have sought with all their heart, mind, and soul as promised. I don't expect anyone to accept. I worship no "god" but walk side by side not in equality but in respect.

To each his own and to his own reward even if that is dirt.

There is only one truth though many interpretations. I've never been defeated nor will I be in scripture. All who knock on my door are granted entrance and leave defeated having fallen on their own sword. But that is of no relevance to this discussion. No leap of faith needed

I agree that Israel today is a result of the UN.

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Well, you don't understand, then, do you? Israel has sustained for four stages: first - 1800 years of loss of political power but still maintained presence throughout Land of Israel and cognizance of homeloand factor while in Exile; second - awakening of national enterprise and achievement of statehood despite Arab terror & Hitler & British Mandatory policies; third - holding off Arab onslaught throughout early years 1950s-60s, building state...

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Yeah, he was a satrap, nobody denies it. Chances are Russians at the time didn't like him much either, to say the least.

Your perspective, however, remains fundamentally limited. Talking about Stalin would take us way too far from the discussion in this article.

Point being, you are wrong about him. Winning the war sort of eclipses everything else...but say what you will. It won't change the fact of the matter.

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Ben,

There are variations on a theme. Israel's theme is Theocracy. It's purpose is to be Jewish, and if someone lives within Israel while not being Jewish, then they do not have access to all the rights & privileges accorded to those who are Jewish. Even the Jews themselves are divided over that issue (orthodox, conservative, reform).

The character, intent, & absolute purpose of Israel is to be, & only to be, Jewish. Judaism is defined ultimately as a special relationship to deity. Only possible conclusion = Theocracy.

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Georgi,

If you have to ask of "home do you speak of", you don't understand. In this, I can only refer to those who are Jewish from wherever they lived and where they call home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56hyhPs-4Vc&feature=related

If you are not Jewish, it may not be possible to understand.

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3000? Bar Kochba revolt failed in 135 CE. Second Temple Commonwealth collapsed under Roman suppression in 70 CE. Have a math problem? Jews continued to live in or come to Land of Israel thoughtout the 1800 years since. Are people realyy that ignorant or refuse to acknowledge?

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Yisrael,

Then you don't understand nor know. You do understand which is obvious but as it is said you are ever seeing but never perceiving. I don't judge you nor am I your enemy. Nor am I an enemy of your enemy. I am a stranger in a strange land. If you even have a clue what that means then you know how to treat me.

Go with who you serve and may he have mercy upon you.

I'm going to bed as it is late.

Gentlemen - all of you. Thank you for the discussion. I am almost in tears. Good night.

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If I wanted propaganda, I'd have asked for it.

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Ben,

There's plenty of dirt to go around, still. I don't like your insinuations. The points I raised are eminently feasible. Your response is enigmatic and reliant upon intangibles that only have meaning for - apparently - a privileged few. Not good enough.

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institutions, economy, absorbing over 1 million; fourth - since 1967, 44+ years of maintaining administration of the territories of the Jewish National Home lost during Mandate period through partition plans returned through Arab intransigence seeking to obliterate state, establishing communities and 350,000 Jews on the Land, 2 intifadas, etc. I'd say a great record of sustaining, no? Even against rabid hate mongering. Great success.

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930 BCE - 1948AD.

1948+930=2878.

Problem? D:

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Georgi,

You are going WAY out on a limb, a very shaky limb, to speak positively - even neutrally - about Stalin. He may have been complex, and/or "Russian", but he was also Stalin.

As for WW II, and Stalingrad, etc., that was a very nasty business.

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Ben and Yisrael are so far the best I've encountered in the art of enigmatic responses, whisps and shades of argument, almost tangible, but never visible - only so in a metaphorical basis, solely achievable on faith...

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I know. Stalin he left a long trail of blood, but his role in history is of far greater consequence than who he killed in domestic purges, as tragic as that was.

That discussion is for another place and time, however.

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Yisrael,

I understand that Israelites are not the only group with ties, or former ties, to a particular piece of real estate. Yet you make claims that no one else attempts to make.

Hypothetical: there will be a time when all humanity must leave this planet so as to survive. What then? Will "Jerusalem" still refer to a place? Or will recognition finally sink in that it is metaphorical?

Once again, regardless of validity of claims or not, bottom line is the fact that Israel is currently embarked on a path that is NOT sustainable long term. There must be changes. Those changes must include adjustments to Israel's current policies for "facts-on-the-ground" & also to its regard (de facto if not de jure) for non-Jews in & around Israel.

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Have you guys not come to the realization that nobody cares what you are saying at this point? I got 16 email notifications over this redundant argument/pissing contest. Please keep this type of crap contained in direct messages. None of us are impressed by your shallow grasp of wikipedia.

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Nolan,

You're free to disable your email notifications and we obviously care, if we're still talking about it. Whether you care or not, I really don't give a single damn.

Now go back to your cartoons and leave the serious stuff to the big boys.

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The point is that nobody outside of your convention of the close-minded does, and you missed the point completely. It's not that I got the e-mail notifications, it's that you don't know when to wrap things up or move on to a new subject.

I think it's quite funny how presumptuous you are about being a part of the 'big boys.' I see that you are somewhat interested in NATO. Yeah, I beat you in that too: http://bit.ly/zJseiD

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Alright, so you're a first year with big ambitions - don't get ahead of yourself, kid, you've got a looot of bread to eat first.

I'm certainly interested in NATO, but what does your self-promotion have to do with it, or with the discussion for that matter?

Presumably you do know how when to end the discussion, but start with lowering the ego.

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First year? I'm a Junior double majoring with a minor in 4 years; I spent 2 months in Turkey last summer & am spending 2 months in Brussels, Belgium and a month in Amman, Jordan this summer.
Belgium because I have an internship/research co-op arranged with NATO, & they sort of approached me about it; & I will be working for them once I graduate...
Lower the ego? I think it's safe to say I'm well within my bounds considering my qualifications.

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OK, I might see you in Brussels, depending on my own summer schedule and if you're not too averse to hang out with us common folk.

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As someone who works and socialises with the NATO community here in Brussels a great deal, I might suggest you don't shout about your project plans and other information related to NATO work on random social media outlets.

People like that don't last long in the NATO environment -- unless they work in PR for PDD, where it is their job, of course!

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@Yisrael Medad my brother does not help halt the rock throwing. He opts for another type of resistance aimed at the ISRAELI OCCUPATION. Get your facts straight. stones are not the equivalent of the tear gas, skunk, sound bombs, rubber and live bullets and illegally used pepper spray the IOF use

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4 Replies

  • Yisrael Medad 3 months ago of course stonbes do not equal tear...

of course stonbes do not equal tear gas. stones are intended to injure, to maim, to kill. FYI: http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2012/02/blocks-and-stones-and-rocks.html

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3 Replies

  • Semma Qura'an 3 months ago Stones don't kill people, Tear...

  • Semma Qura'an 3 months ago please do not embarrass yourself an...

  • Yisrael Medad 3 months ago just last October: http://www.jta....

Stones don't kill people, Tear gas canisters do.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-13/palestinian-killed-by-tear-gas-canister/3727656

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please do not embarrass yourself any further by speaking of a conflict about which you are not aware/educated. You are a racist.

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just last October: http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/10/07/3089751/two-arrested-in-stone-throwing-killing and why would the PA Mufti Muhammad Hussein then repeat the Hadith to kill Jews?
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=427

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and yes IOF not IDF it is not a Defense force, it is an Offensive force targeting civilians

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and yes IOF not IDF it is not a Defense force, it is an Offensive force targeting civilians

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Yisrael, let me just say that Fadi is exactly the person you want leading the impetus for change in Palestine. People are always asking when the Palestinians will find their next Gandhi, well Fadi is your man. So, regardless of what side of the conflict you're on, we should be supporting him and trying to see that he gets home quickly. Rather than making a politicized statement about Palestinians and the conflict here, I think that we should stick to Fadi's case and making sure he is OK. The videos and photos speak for themselves about him.

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18 Replies

  • Yisrael Medad 3 months ago I was quite in to that previous eff...

  • Manar Hijaz 3 months ago Jake, you are a intelligent man my ...

I was quite in to that previous effort of his - the Freedom Rides. We laughed since (a) Arabs can ride the buses; (b) so they had to change their goal to entering Jerusalem; and (c) they actually were on the 148 bus that serves Shiloh, too. Their message was based on a falsehood. Too bad.

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16 Replies

  • Tom McKay 3 months ago Very generous policies towards the ...

  • Jake Horowitz 3 months ago You are right that it is not techni...

  • Yisrael Medad 3 months ago sorry, we're not French. if th...

Very generous policies towards the Palestinians! You could maybe let them eat cake too, while you're at it.

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You are right that it is not technically forbidden, Yisrael, though please see this excerpt for my position on this (from Mondoweiss):

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/11/next-week-palestinian-freedom-riders-will-board-segregated-buses-in-west-bank.html

"Several Israeli companies, among them Egged and Veolia, operate dozens of lines that run through the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, many of them subsidized by the state. They run between different Israeli settlements, connecting them to each other and cities inside Israel. Some lines connecting Jerusalem to other cities inside Israel, such as Eilat and Beit She'an, are also routed to pass through the West Bank.

Israelis suffer almost no limitations on their freedom of movement in the occupied Palestinian territory, and are even allowed to settle in it, contrary to international law. Palestinians, in contrast, are not allowed to enter Israel without procuring a special permit from Israeli authorities. Even Palestinian movement inside the Occupied Territories is heavily restricted, with access to occupied East Jerusalem and some 8% of the West Bank in the border area also forbidden without a similar permit.

While it is not officially forbidden for Palestinians to use Israeli public transportation in the West Bank, these lines are effectively segregated, since many of them pass through Jewish-only settlements, to which Palestinian entry is prohibited by a military decree."

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sorry, we're not French. if the Pals. had not followed the Grand Mufti, had not killed Jews in 1920, 1929, 1936-49, had accepted 1947 partition, had not set up fedayeen terror, not set up Fatah terror, not Hamas, nor Islamic Jihad, has accepted Oslo, etc., maybe all would be okay by now.

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Come on, Yisrael. That answer does not respond to the immediate point at hand. That's a cop out response. On both sides, we could point to many, many missed opportunities on both sides in history. But that doesn't relate to the immediate question of the bus boycott and occupation. First you said the bus boycott wasn't necessary because Palestinians can ride the buses. I showed you some evidence that it's not quite that simple. And your response is about Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and terrorism from pre-WW II?? How about dealing with my point in a serious way?

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300 characters too few but: a) bus business was a fake and proven so and they had to recreate a confrontation. b) u can't read: from 1920 until today: same approach (total negation of Jewish rights), same response (always violent). I call it the Pal. Model of Inventivity Nationalism. & u fall 4 it

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Just to clarify, take a look at the video. What was violent about Fadi's actions in this case?

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can't. is there a YouTube link? from what I saw seems it was edited and the lead-up is missing.

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I did Jake and besides you being an unabashed Palestinian supporter which is your prerogative, the videos I saw I didn't approve of the way the press was handled but I don't know the full context. Something looked amiss in this without seeing the unedited portions. Seems like your good at picking at only what you want presented. Working your way up to MSM propaganda I see.

I did hear him say that he led a group to the checkpoint in violation of no trespass and "we tried breaking through the wall". Well, that is not non violent if you are agressive where it is not allowed and attacking structures built to keep violent Palestinians away. He needs to learn a little more about non violence so he doesn't get hurt.

There is more than one side.

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Please do not call me an unabashed Palestinian supporter, Ben, nor make supporting a Palestinian American who graduated from Stanford's human rights something pejorative. So you know, I have lived in Jerusalem, worked with Israeli cabinet members, worked for peacebuilding organizations in Israel, and have spent my life advocating for a two-state solution. That you paint me this way deeply hurts me.

That said, call me what you want, Fadi does not deserve to sit in prison. Plain and simple. Put history, the rest of the conflict, politics, all that aside. See the full video from Facebook, go on Twitter to read first hand accounts, scan Facebook, and you'll see that he very much was and has been practicing non-violence for years.

First, everyone is angry cause Palestinians are "too violent" and want non-violence, now they're not not violent enough, when will you start admitting that there is some wrongdoing on Israeli soldiers' part too?!

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To that Jake, you do have my my recant for I never meant to say you're something you're not nor hurt you (though I am not a shoulder to cry on it is not my intention to intentionally harm). No I didn't know your background and now am surprised you didn't give more of a semblance of balance. That is really what I am attacking. It was looking like a love fest all one sided. Balance PLEASE. Most of the time neither side is correct though one side may appear to be more correct. As to credentials, I give little regard. As to action much

As to the abuse of putting Palestinians in jail, I agree much of that is incorrect as I see most military actions (including the US) as rounding up "undesirables" and including those it should not in the process

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Unless you endorse the video the occupier posted Free Fadi page, my suggestion would be to take it down.

Again, I applaud your friends non-violent efforts and your unwavering support of him through this tumultuous time.



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Thanks Jeanne. I didn't create the FB page so I can't take it down, but I agree that it is an unfortunate video. That said, it is an open wall, so Liking the page doesn't mean you like every comment/participant's thoughts on the page. In the same way that if you like PolicyMic's page, that doesn't mean you agree with everything posted by us (or others) on the page. In any case, that video doesn't represent Fadi, that's for sure.

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Jake - as a side note. Remember your own words when discussing anything about Ron Paul and racism in the same sentence. - Cheers!

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I am 100% on board with balance (that's after all what PolicyMic is all about) and I agree that neither side is correct, there is always gray in between. This article is obviously influenced by my own emotions and personal connection to Fadi which is perhaps why I'm so ardently defending it, and also why it may seem like I lack "balance." I do know that when it comes to Israel-Palestine, there's blame to go all the way around.

One last thing I will say to this point though, is that I think balance should not be used as a justification for silence. You are not doing that here. But, very often in this debate, one side tries to discredit the other by saying we need more balance and to see things from two sides. I believe in balance at large, but also feel there are some instances in which something can be just plain wrong, and it's OK to call something out for what it is. That's just an aside that has always bothered my about the way this conflict is argued.

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Jake, you are 100% correct on balance and, to be honest, you responses are balanced. Emotional and balanced. The challenge is not your responses, rather the ideological ignorance that has a tendency to latch on to the idea and subsequently throw off the balance.

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Free speech is a necessity. Crap like what was posted on the fb page dilutes the legitimacy of Fadi's intent. Liking the page while the video is still posted gives the impression that the people who like the page support the rhetoric. I refuse to go there because not speaking out against it is the reason why 6m people were killed across Europe in the 30's and 40's; tens of thousands were murdered in Bosnia during the 90's; and God only knows how many in the Sudan - including Muslims murdering Muslims for sect/denomination differences.

Unless I'm mistaken about the mission of PolicyMic, it's a forum to discuss the issues, objectively look at all sides, and find the balance.

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Jake, you are a intelligent man my friend! While we try to clone Fadis I think we should clone some Jakes too!

You are 100% correct. We should focus on Fadi's case because he, and others like him, are the only hope for peace. Thanks for the reminder.

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Awesome. Great profile.

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  • No longer with us
  • 3 months ago

This account has been disabled.

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I am so sorry to hear this and will circulate widely. In the meantime, reach out to 972 Magazine for a guest post -- they cover similar issues frequently and will be happy to be of help. Also, tweet at @Elizrael @nvconflict @wagingnv to ask for support. Fadi sounds like an incredible human being and I will keep him in my thoughts. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

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A courageous thing! I'll share his story with friends.

I do worry about his definition of justice, however: "Justice, in its essence, means that all people have equal and indefeasible claims to basic liberties, that all people have an equal opportunity to pursue happiness and achieve it, and that the least-advantaged in society are not left behind and ignored."

The great accomplishment of the American founding was the separation of governmental justice and private justice - a recognition that government alone does not share the burden of justice. The Founders argued that such an approach would always end in tyranny. The 19th and 20th centuries seem to stand behind them on that.

Regardless, he should be commended for all of his work.

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2 Replies

  • James Velasquez 3 months ago And I know he will be in the though...

  • Jake Horowitz 3 months ago Great idea you raise here, James. I...

And I know he will be in the thoughts and prayers of myself and friends!

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Great idea you raise here, James. I'm sure you and Fadi would love to debate this.

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Thank you so much Jake for bringining this to our attention. Fadi is lucky to have a friend like you.

I actually recently read about the Palestinian Freedom Rides (a friend of mine actually participated in them) and I think it is absolutely amazing the work he has done. We need more nonviolent youth activists like Fadi Quran in Palestine and all over the world.

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