Supreme Court Could Rule That Using Race As a Factor in School Admissions is Unconstitutional

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race, Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, Fisher v. University of Texas, Grutter v. Bolinger, race, 2012

Supreme Court Could Rule That Using Race As a Factor in School Admissions is Unconstitutional

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In a decision that is sure to toss even more political meat into the 2012 election arena, the Supreme Court on Tuesday announced that it would take another look at the use of race in college admissions.

The case of Fisher v. University of Texas centers on Abigail Fisher, a student from Sugar Land, Texas, who applied for and was denied admission to the University of Texas in 2007. Fisher claims that her test scores and grades "exceeded those of many of the admitted minority candidates,” and she sued alleging a violation of the equal protection clause.

The Texas university system makes clear that it does factor race into its admissions decisions, a consideration first called constitutional by a plurality of the Supreme Court in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke in 1978. Texas universities automatically admit students in the top 10% of their class on a race-neutral base and then supplement their student bodies with an admission process that does take race into consideration. This second program, Fisher alleges, violates the constitutional guarantee of equal protection.

While some states have explicitly banned the use of race in admissions decisions, the practice was upheld by a narrow 5-4 margin in 2003 in the case of Grutter v. Bolinger. There, the Supreme Court held that the use of race as a factor in admissions is constitutional, so long as no point or weight value is given to race in the consideration process.

The Court’s decision to review Fisher signals a potential sea-change in the legal posture the Court seeks to take on the issue of affirmative action. Five of the nine currently sitting justices have stated on the record that they are against the use of race as a factor in admission decisions and the decision to review Fisher suggests that they may be ready to put words to paper, reversing the long-standing acceptance of affirmative action programs upheld in Bakke and Grutter.

The balance of the Court has certainly shifted away from the more liberal leanings that helped spawn Bakke and Grutter. Grutter opinion author Sandra Day O’Connor has since been replaced by far more conservative Justice Samuel Alito and an expected member of the Court’s liberal wing, Justin Elena Kagan, will be taking no part in consideration of the case due to her prior work on the case as solicitor general.

The Roberts Court has also taken a more aggressive stance at eliminating programs that factor race into the decision-making process. In a 2007 decision concerning the use of race in determining integration programs in public schools, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote that “racial balancing is not transformed from ‘patently unconstitutional’ to a compelling state interest simply by relabeling it ‘racial diversity.’” He went on to conclude that “the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”

The nature of the case in Fisher gives the Justices several options for potential outcomes. They could dodge the question entirely and rule that a university admissions program cannot have both an automatic race-neutral admissions policy and a subjective race-factoring admissions policy. They could declare programs that use race in admissions decision unconstitutional in situations where other, race-neutral programs, have achieved the stated goals of diversity and integration. Alternatively, the Court could attack the question directly, explicitly reversing Bakke and Grutter and declaring the use of race as a factor in admissions decisions unconstitutional.

Whatever their decision, the timing of the oral arguments in early October coincide with the closing days of the 2012 election, a fact that is sure to stir a fiery debate among politicians and pundits. The Court’s final ruling will likely come in early 2013, by which time Abigail Fisher will have graduated from Louisiana State University, where she ended up enrolling. Despite being unable to attend the school of her choice, Fisher’s name may very well become famous in the world of affirmative action policies and law.

Photo Credit: TexasGOPvote

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Mark Kogan

Mark Kogan is currently a law student at the American University Washington College of Law in Washington, D.C.. He graduated from Stanford Univer...

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Mark Kogan

The whole point of Fisher's claim is that the race-neutral policy achieves nearly identical results without using race as a factor. I am a refugee immigrant to the United States. My family and I came with little more than suitcases as we fled our country of birth. We lived on meager resources in my early years and I am the first person to attend an American school in my family, yet I was never considered for affirmative action programs on account of my race. Race, in my opinion, is not an appropriate factor where alternative programs DO exist that show effectively similar results. I believe Chief Justice Roberts got it right in 2007 by saying that to stop discriminating based on race, we need to simply stop discriminating based on race.

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If private contracts and private property rights were strictly enforced, this would not be a problem. Universities would be free to chose any admissions policy they saw fit. Since violently stolen tax dollars are used to fund public education, this has created quite the conundrum for the courts.

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Mark, I wish your opinions were highlighted in your article. I enjoyed your commentary below more than the article! You've done your profession proud.

Constitutionally speaking, affirmative action doesn't have a leg to stand on. You don't address racism and discrimination by enacting policies that discriminate based on race. It's nonsensical.

There is also a strong argument to be made that AA is a failure.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/8108

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3873.html

http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/culture/racism/2183-dirty-secrets-about-affirmative-action.html

http://www.redcounty.com/content/why-walter-williams-was-right-affirmative-action-promotes-discrimination

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It's about time. For those of you who assume affirmative action produces only positive results for minorities, check out the predictions of Clyde Summers. He introduced the idea of the "cascade effect," which stated that affirmative action would merely shift the limited pool of qualified minority students upwards, into colleges where they were academically outclassed by their peers. Good summary here, on page 44 of the PDF: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/faculty/rubinfeldd/SanderFINAL.pdf

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Mr.Kogan- This whole issue is becoming an albatross because the proposed solutions are too wishy- washy. Why wouldn't it makes sense for a law school, or any other school, to have a policy of admitting 100 minority students out of 1,000? The school just wants to have 10% of its students be of color. The Texas algorithm is too complicated and too subjective.

I suppose someone out there will say having a given target is unconstitutional, but I don't see how that is the case.

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6 Replies

  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago The Supreme Court has repeatedly sa...

  • Zachary Taylor 3 months ago @Sal: Actually, the same precedent ...

The Supreme Court has repeatedly said that quotas are unconstitutional, so that's a non-starter.

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  • Sal Bommarito 3 months ago If a school has a policy of enrolli...

If a school has a policy of enrolling 51% males and 49% females, is it unconstitutional too?

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3 Replies

  • Sal Bommarito 3 months ago If a school has a policy of enrolli...

  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago Yes, but less so. There are varying...

  • Sal Bommarito 3 months ago That's very interesting. I had...

If a school has a policy of enrolling 25% of its student body from North Dakota, is it unconstitutional too?

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Yes, but less so. There are varying degrees of scrutiny applied by the court to equal protection claims such as the one you mentioned. The highest form, strict scrutiny, is applied to race, religion, and national origin. Sex discrimination gets intermediate scrutiny, a heavy but lesser burden. Discrimination against other states will likely get even lesser scrutiny so long as it has a legitimate government interest backing it and is not discriminatory on its face but only in its application.

So short answer, yes, all of those things very well may be unconstitutional, but they states are given slightly more leeway to discriminate on those factors than race or religion.

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That's very interesting. I had not idea about the other examples. Thanks.

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@Sal: Actually, the same precedent mentioned in the article prevents schools from "quantifying" race as either a point value or an explicit quota. The Court was trying to have its cake and eat it too.

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An interesting and nicely written article, Mark.

This is certainly a conundrum. On the one hand, I can fully understand the premise of removing race as a necessary criteria for school admissions. Then again, it could well be in the best interests, for many reasons, of any school to desire "presence" or "representation" from amongst the many diverse communities within USA and beyond; schools should be able to reach their own admissions decisions.

I'm thinking that the primary dilemmas in education occur K-12 rather than at the collegiate level.

Also, here's an interesting glimpse, from Morgan Freeman, on resolution of the race question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s

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4 Replies

  • Ben Poole 3 months ago George, I agree but want to add ...

  • Douglas Goodman 3 months ago George, If only Morgan Freeman and...

George,

I agree but want to add that the primary problem starts at home. We all stand on the shoulders of giants is what most scientists state. The first shoulder you stand upon is that of those who raise you. That could be a big difference and an advancement in education. It can also be a huge hindrance if, instead of putting you up, they tear down and do a disservice that will follow that person all their life. I am fortune in that regard. Any of my failings are strictly my fault.

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1 Replies

  • George Schieck 3 months ago I am essentially in agreement, Ben....

I am essentially in agreement, Ben. I didn't state that here as there wasn't room enough for it (no excuse!), and also because it can be quite a contentious point (no excuse!), as many expect schools to provide most and perhaps even all the needed ingredients. Family is hugely important in the educational process, and for much else as well. Arguably family might not be necessary, as some are able to stand and thrive in the absence of that kind of support, but very few.

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George,
If only Morgan Freeman and Bill Cosby were listened to.

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  • George Schieck 3 months ago Agree! And many think that "t...

Agree! And many think that "they" tried to silence Bill Cosby.

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Very nice summary. Though it didn't come out in the piece, in the commentary, you appear to have voiced your support for a ban on the use of race in admissions processes. Do you believe that diversity and integration are worthy goals for private institutions to ascribe value? Also, should the Supreme Court ban discrimination based on legacy preferences as well?

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  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago Legacy? Yes, although I think winni...

  • Zachary Taylor 3 months ago "Legacy" is a great way f...

Legacy? Yes, although I think winning a constitutional argument is much more difficult since "familial attendance at a university" is not a protected class, legally speaking.

As for the weighing of diversity and integration - I personally believe that there is a great deal of value to increase diversity and integration. However, I do not believe that it should be policy to violate constitutional rights in order to achieve diversity and integration goals.

I believe the question presented in Fisher is much simpler because there is a race-neutral program that is meeting the state's diversity and integration aspirations. If this program is scalable to other states, I would prefer it to the current standard of race-conscious decision making.

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  • Andrew Hanson 3 months ago I can't speak to the constitut...

I can't speak to the constitutionality issues. However, from an ethical perspective, I've always found the view most plausible that one's academic achievement is only one of many qualities that universities want their student bodies to embody.

Cultural/ethnic diversity seems like a goal that students would benefit from, as would class diversity. I also understand why universities give legacy preferences, and while I don't think it's fair, I don't think that the government should restrict it unless we believe that a particular social group is systematically segregated from the rest of the population.

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  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago I agree that there is more than sim...

  • Gary W. Patterson, Jr. 3 months ago Thank you for articulating the clea...

I agree that there is more than simple academic achievement that goes into admission consideration. However, the state cannot apply laws differently to different people based on constitutionally mandated classifications (race, sex, national origin, age, etc).

For the same reason that a public school cannot exclude Christians or Muslims from attending based on their religious affiliation, public schools should not be able to have a protected, immutable characteristic such as race be the factor that prevents an individual from receiving a state benefit (in this case, education).

There is no easy answer here specifically because the state is limited in its ability to distinguish between individuals based on immutable characteristics.

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Thank you for articulating the clear difference b/w legacy admissions and race based admissions.

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"Legacy" is a great way for schools to continue now-illegal racist practices from the time when they had quotas designed to limit the number of Jews and Blacks. Since those minorities are less likely to have family who attended elite schools due to past policies, legacy disadvantages them.

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As an American born to immigrant parents, all I'm hearing is the 'privileged' lifestyle of individuals who don't have firsthand experience. Education is anything but an equal right in the US from the moment you enter a school that's public vs. private & beyond. I've seen it first hand & unless you've experienced it I find it difficult to listen to those who encourage the removal of affirmative action without a better alternative to take it place.

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33 Replies

  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago The whole point of Fisher's cl...

  • Brian Knight 3 months ago The issue isn't that there is ...

The whole point of Fisher's claim is that the race-neutral policy achieves nearly identical results without using race as a factor.

I am a refugee immigrant to the United States. My family and I came with little more than suitcases as we fled our country of birth. We lived on meager resources in my early years and I am the first person to attend an American school in my family, yet I was never considered for affirmative action programs on account of my race.

Race, in my opinion, is not an appropriate factor where alternative programs DO exist that show effectively similar results. I believe Chief Justice Roberts got it right in 2007 by saying that to stop discriminating based on race, we need to simply stop discriminating based on race.

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21 Replies

  • Amy Rondinel 3 months ago This is not an issue of there being...

This is not an issue of there being something flawed in the educational system as well as in affirmative action. It's a question of how do we minimize the disparity within the educational system between those that are more privileged (the 'majority') vs. those who aren't (the 'minority'). There needs to be an alternative and the answer isn't throwing out what's flawed and in turn encourage the very issue that made affirmative action necessary.

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  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago Well, the answer IS to throw out wh...

  • Amy Rondinel 3 months ago Isn't having a quality educati...

  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago "Isn't having a quality e...

Well, the answer IS to throw out what's flawed when it violates constitutionally protected rights.

Moreover, the Texas Top-10% system is doing a nearly identical job of minimizing the disparity in our educational system - why does Texas need an additional, race-conscious system that allegedly violates constitutional rights without providing a substantially different outcome?

I don't disagree that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater but that simply isn't the case here and ignoring the effectiveness of the race-neutral program does not lend credibility to your argument.

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Isn't having a quality education a constitutional right? Talk to me about how you encourage changes in laws & policy that provide an even footing for all those who live in this country & then I'll be happy to listen to what is a constitutional right with respect to AA. Also, I think it's appalling for you to use one statistical argument (Texas none the less) for the rationale on why AA is constitutionally flawed. I suggest you revisit AA history.

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"Isn't having a quality education a constitutional right?"

No, it's not. While it may be good legislative policy or an appropriate goal, it is not a constitutional right. Individual states may have education added as a state constitutional right, but state's are not allowed to enforce state laws in federally unconstitutional ways.

"I think it's appalling for you to use one statistical argument"

I am addressing the issues presented in the case being discussed. Like I mentioned in the article, SCOTUS may rule that if there is NO statistically similar race-neutral alternative (as in Texas), then race MAY be used as a factor. That seems to strike the exact middle-ground you suggest, keeping AA unless a proven alternative exists.

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Education is not a constitutional right. " I suggest you revisit AA history."

I suggest you reread the Constitution.

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Amy,
I respect your opinion expressed in all your comments and while I do not agree, your opening question is this post is troubling. I'm curious to know why you consider a quality education a constitutional right as it does not appear in the Constitution.

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Catherine, fair enough however the legality of it is a very narrow-minded view of the problem. I don't look at this situation in black, white or gray. I'm looking at the macro core of the problem which isn't AA.

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Doug, in all frankness my statement may have been for emphasis vs. it being in black/white. But let's be fair, the very reason why AA has been on the cutting block for so long is because there isn't precedence. What Grutter & now Fisher does is force the Supreme Court to answer, is it a violation? Whether AA violates our 'constitutional rights' or not will be decided more along party lines than whether it's a violation which worries me.

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That assertion is demonstrably false. The question of whether AA violates our 'constitutional rights' will be determined by legal analysis under the equal protection framework. Was it decided along party lines when Grutter was authored by a female Reagan appointee?

They old adage is that the activist judge is the one that rules against you. Don't confuse a losing legal argument with your perception of political injustice.

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There is a huge problem when a white kid named John applies to a school and gets denied and then reapplies to the same school and says he is Latino and is named Juan and gets accepted. This is a true story by the way.

Crazier things than this are happening all the time in higher education.

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What determines a student getting into a good college should be their academic achievements, no matter what their race. If you want true equality, there it is.

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Catherine-Yes, not surprised to hear it; when I entered public high school, I was in a 9th grade English class that was reading/writing at a 4th grade level (comparing it to my 9 years in catholic school prior) & didn't know what a TOC or bibliography was. This was over 15 years ago & as I understand it, the public system is the same or worse. Yes, there are extremely crazy things happening in education but that's the core of the problem, not AA.

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Amy,
With this and your reply to Catherine, below, I think I have a clearer picture of where you are coming from. Perhaps if SCOTUS takes AA off the table, school districts could focus on the core problems you allude to.

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Mark, I respect your perspective & discussion points regarding AA's constitutional viability (I even accidentally mic'd one of your comments) however if you see my responses I'm not having a legal debate with you; I question that eliminating AA is the solution to the core of the problem for why AA was instituted in the first place especially with nothing viable to replace or properly address a problem that is still very much alive.

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Doug-I'm still severely limited by 450 characters so I appreciate the opportunity to respond and clarify my point. As for your hope, it is mine as well but using history as a benchmark, it's unlikely that school districts will be motivated into action given that action usually only takes place when policy is put into place, not when it is removed.

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Amy,
Mic to help you get to the next level.

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If one white kid not getting into school is a huge problem what do you call a million black and brown kids not getting into school for five hundred years? Why is a white kid a huge problem? Caucasians have never, ever been able to tolerate the every day racism minorities know, even if that discrimination is only perceived and not real.

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Especially when statistically speaking white kids go to better school from grade one.

Ignore race, ignore race, ignore race. Now that we've done the damage with 500 years of slavery and colonization, ignore race.

Yeah right.

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Lawrence,

Those who live in the past are bound to repeat it. Since your studying to be Catholic, tell me what gives you the right to not forgive the 200th generation for the sins of the 1st generation when each man is to answer for their own sins? Besides, you can't justify it only complain. I keep trying to ignore your meandering snobbery of whites because you can't see your own hypocrisy. - see first sentence and repeat.

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My goal, my interest, etc. is not to hurt anyone, quite the opposite. If ten to twenty percent of school's enrollment is reserved for the best qualified minority students, the vast majority of a school's enrollees are still caucasian. I don't see how any set or group is being harmed by this. And its funny that so few people advocated about unfairness when it was the minorities being treated thusly. Now you'd think 90% of the country was being kept from an education. Numbers certainly don't bear that out. Caucasians get far more degrees than minorities. No one is being "hurt".

And for the record, the sins against my people continued well into my lifetime, they aren't ancient history they weren't 200 generations ago.

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That is an OK goal not bad in the least but very impractical if you stand up for yourself. I don't attempt to attack a person (though I may err in my wording sometimes - even when not caught I kick myself). I explain up front we are discussing ideas and they may not be of the same agreement. That is fair to me. As long as we don't take it personal its OK. But, I cannot help if another is offended I don't like their opinion. I told someone in a post somewhere on that today - I'm not a shoulder to cry on. I learned to wipe my tears with dirt and never again.

As to "I don't see how any group is being harmed by this", the entire article is about that very thing.

As to 90% you lost me. Caucasians have far more education debt than minorities.

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The issue isn't that there is equal access...there isn't. The issue is that race-based AA is a very poor means to correct the problem of access and an example of racial discrimination. If we want people of all backgrounds to get access to quality education, and want to provide schools with diverse, enriching classes, while staying true to our constitutional values, there are better ways.

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10 Replies

  • Amy Rondinel 3 months ago It's the naive simplicity of t...

It's the naive simplicity of the argument 'AA violates our constitutionally protected rights' as means of throwing out a program that had viable reasons for being instituted as the core of my problem & why I'm concerned. AA isn't the problem nor whether it's constitutional, that's just a way to win a legal battle/discussion. The issue is the educational system itself; we should find an alternative first before reopening that can of worms.

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  • Brian Knight 3 months ago If all an unconstitutional program ...

  • Amy Rondinel 3 months ago Brian-wonderful, tell me where ther...

  • Catherine Tershak 3 months ago AA is supposed to be there to suppo...

If all an unconstitutional program needed was a viable reason to be allowed to continue our constitution would be meaningless.

IF you are concerned that kids w/o a lot of opportunities are not going to have access to education you should ask why they lack opportunities. Almost always it is because they are poor, not because they are of a certain race. There are race-neutral ways to address those disadvantages and expand opportunity.

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Brian-wonderful, tell me where there's a constitutional precedence to encourage equal opportunity for the poor vs. privileged with respect to education & I'll be the first to support the demise of AA. Again, the issue is not as simple as a black/white legal precedence for AA or not. AA addresses what is still an issue in our country & that issue still has racial undertones. Once you remove AA, what do the under privileged have to take its place?

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AA is supposed to be there to support minorities from unfair discrimination. If you don't have the right qualifications for the college that does not count as discrimination. And what makes you assume they are under privileged. After all, AA is just supposed to make sure they make the cut if they are qualified.

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Yes, there is no guarantee that all minorities taking advantage of AA are under privileged but tell me, what is out there to protect those who are minority & under privileged who have no choice but be taught at a 4th grade English level when they're in 9th grade (see my earlier response)? In all fairness I will speculate that AA may only truly help 1% of those qualified but I'll take that versus nothing OR until there's a better solution.

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Under Grutter AA is acceptable to let the school obtain a diverse student body b/c there are supposedly educational benefits to that, not to address de jure discrimination (which is already illegal). This means that the justification lies in the notion that there is some important difference between students that gives rise to meaningful diversity. I am arguing that class is the better measure of diversity and race is just an imperfect proxy.

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Class based AA would be less constitutionally suspect. Under the COTUS race is a protected status and the government generally cannot discriminate based on it (see 15th Amendment). States have to have a narrowly tailored and compelling interest to make decisions based on race. Class does not have these restrictions (see welfare, a transfer of people from one class to another.) As such, a class based AA is more likely constitutional.

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I think you made a case for class based AA. Your race doesn't determine where you go to high school, your class does. (Relatively) rich people of all races go to better schools because they have the money to either go to private school or support a good public system. Poor people of all races generally go to bad schools. I'd rather help poor folks of all races than assume that race and bad schools are inextricably linked.

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Brian-I appreciate your supporting arguments & fair enough, class based may be the way to go however we do not have one that has been structured to impact higher education admissions in a meaningful fashion. The programs available in my time were EOP & MRP which were financial but primarily race based. As I mentioned earlier, I'll take AA as it currently stands vs. nothing OR until there's a better solution instituted.

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As we have seen in the past, often things won't change, new and better programs won't be developed, until the court forces the state to do so. The Texas program, because it treated the top 10% from all high schools the same, makes a good effort at equalizing the playing field (as much as one program can), and as mentioned earlier, there are now more minorities at UT than when it was a strictly race based system.

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Race has no business being anywhere in government especially learning centers.

Previous Irish, Polish, German and other groups that were minorities are now considered "white" to prove a majority. Unless you can prove pure blood, you can't claim Indian heritage even if you are part Indian without birth records which never existed for some. So, its becoming self-describing. My son actually puts "black" on his application and gets union contract jobs because they can't prove otherwise. I don't approve but it is shrewd. That is what racial quota's and consideration do - its a deception of the truth that encourages deception to counterbalance. I hope for reversal of Bakke and Grutter. I won't hold my breath on SCOTUS doing right.

Good write-up

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  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago Actually Ben until recently you cou...

Actually Ben until recently you could obtain a Certified Degree of Indian Blood (CDIB) card from the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) if you could certify Indian heritage even if you couldn't qualify for tribal citizenship-depending on the tribe's blood quantum requirement. Yep, we got our own pedigree paperwork, just like dogs.

Now blood quantum, a non-Indian concept, determines our Indian-ness. Not culture, language, spirituality, community involvement or acceptance. Just what percentage of your ancesters were recognized by the government as Indian.

Let's hope 500 years of slavery and colonization isn't forgotten when discussing AA. You don't undo such a terrible legacy with less than 50 years of AA.

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  • Douglas Goodman 3 months ago Lawrence, I recently read of a tri...

  • Ben Poole 3 months ago If two generations cannot change at...

Lawrence,
I recently read of a tribe in Nevada that kicked several people out because of blood requirements. This was regardless of the fact these people had been long-time tribal citizens. Interesting to learn of the blood test. I don't know how much sense that makes.

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  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago Exactly. As colonized and completel...

  • Ben Poole 3 months ago Lawrance, Don't give me any of...

  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago That absolutely was not what I was ...

Exactly. As colonized and completely dysfunctional people, one of our biggest disadvantages is our dyfunctional governments. Born of the bording school experiences we have dysfunctional non traditional people who typically gain control of our government and just like other banana republics are supremely willing to sign away our natural resource rights to you know who. Furthermore, the tribes that do hit a payday with resources or God forbid a casino now get to fight internally over money just like we've seen our colonizers due. One family gets into power and disenrolls another one so as not to share money or settle some old vendetta. Its sickening. Completely. Colonization has been effective in deconstructing our communities and our lives.

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Lawrance, Don't give me any of your "blue blood" royalty of being an Indian any more than me. You're no better than me. My blood definitely has Indian in it from two "half-breed" grandparents and I've been discriminated by every race so far. You learn to fight the good fights. What has happened to the tribes shows contempt of everything I stand for in "blood test" for membership if someone doesn't have enough royalty in them to be a royal person. Nepotism is high I've noticed in Indian tribes (though each are different)

My tribe doesn't have a casino years ago and could care less now - I washed my hands of those who think they are better than me. As you stated, each tribe is different. But I won't accept any blame for what happened yrs ago

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That absolutely was not what I was saying Ben. Quite the opposite.

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Then you have my recant if what you were attempting to say is the opposite of what I understood.

I know the disservice that has been done and I am not only appalled but will stand to assist those who are disadvantaged. But no longer on race - I've seen the abuse in legislating discrimination to amend for discrimination. Class based upon income level should be the criteria for assistance to get out of a cycle of poverty. Education empowers people in many ways including removing discrimination or they are still remain ignorant.

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I'm not opposed to the class based system you suggest. I think that has merit.

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Thanks.

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If two generations cannot change attitudes then something fundamentally is wrong. The wrong that keeps separate two people - is to have two separate people when we are to be a melting pot. Though I agree the atrocities were egregious and shameful. The US was wrong 99% of the time. To separate is to create different classes of citizens. That is just wrong. But, I don't blame the Indians in any of it - all belongs to the US government.

As to 500 years or slavery, I'll never apologize nor should any for none living today are guilty. They have their reward. As to people today who are racists - I have no use for them and oppose them.

I see no good in AA for it is legal discrimination. Ignorance and prejudiced can only be cured with education

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  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago But it is that education we're...

  • Ben Poole 3 months ago Then write of the treaty violation....

But it is that education we're trying to obtain and insure we all have a shot at. Look at reservation or inner city schools, overwhelmingly minority and tell me we all have an equal shot at an advanced education. No way.

Really I can only speak intelligently of my own people. Our education systems are so poorly funded that the US Civil Rights Commission said in it's A Quiet Crisis report that the funding shortfalls not only constituted treaty violations but human rights violations and suggest funding increases of up to 85%. And that was in 2003.

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Then write of the treaty violation. I would support you on that. That is an idea you could champion and I bet receive broad support. Human rights violations are usually not educational violations but if those exist then write of those also. I've got your back and as you know if I stand for someone, I don't back down to anything but truth. Be truthful, back up statements with facts and references and I'll cheer you on! I actually really would like to cheer you on.

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Overturning Grutter would be an important step in the right direction. Race is at best an imperfect proxy for the real social ills Affirmative Action is supposed to address and hard to square with our desire for a society where all races are treated equally.

A class based affirmative action would likely do more to allow disadvantaged youth of all races access to high quality education and help prevent the existence of a permanent underclass.

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  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago Interestingly, Texas' top 10% ...

Interestingly, Texas' top 10% automatic race-neutral program has given pretty good results in terms of diversity and integration of minorities into higher education.

From the LA Times Article: "By 2004, 21% of the entering students at the Austin campus were black or Latino, a higher percentage than when the university had used race-based affirmative action."

My guess is that the Court will overturn Grutter with that statistic as the cornerstone of the argument. The difference between race-neutral and race-conscious policies are, at most, 5% according to the statistics. My guess it the Court will say that that is no longer good enough to merit race-based decisionmaking.

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  • Brian Knight 3 months ago That may be true. The court may als...

That may be true. The court may also look at the value of different types of diversity. Grutter was based on the idea that race-based admissions provided schools with a more diverse, and therefore better learning environment. SCOTUS may look to see whether there is an advantage to a diverse environment and if so, whether it is simply race that is doing the work or some other factor for which race is a proxy such as class or geography.

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  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago I doubt the Court will evaluate the...

  • Brian Knight 3 months ago I generally agree, except that the ...

I doubt the Court will evaluate the interest of the state in facilitating diversity. THat is a political question appropriately left to the legislature. Instead, the Court will likely look at programs that are race-neutral in determining whether they are just as effective at achieving the state's asserted goals.

If they effectively are (and they seem to be in Texas) then the Court can easily conclude that factoring race into the equation is unnecessary and therefore the state fails to meet the burden it needs to pass constitutional muster.

That said, the Roberts Court explicitly called out the "diversity" justification in the Seattle case, so we may see a replay of that here as well.

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I generally agree, except that the reasoning in Grutter dealt with the state's interest, so they may feel they need to address that, either to provide guidance to lower courts or for political optics. Roberts seems to want to address this issue in depth.

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I can't believe how short sighted people who supported the Grutter v Bolinger outcome are. As a minority, I cringe when a Supreme Court decision contains language such as "the use of race as a factor in admissions is constitutional".

I understand that historically minorities have been underrepresented at colleges. However, changing who is being discriminated doesn't eliminate discrimination. Instead, it sets a precedent for more of it.

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  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago The clash between that line from th...

  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago So just keep on with the disparitie...

The clash between that line from the Grutter opinion and the jurisprudence of the Roberts Court is exactly what makes me think Grutter is going to get overturned explicitly.

However, it really is going to come down to the votes. If those seeking to overturn Grutter have 5 votes, they'll take the direct route. Otherwise, they will narrow their holding to get the votes by declaring the mixing of race-neutral and race-conscious programs to be unconstitutional while still leaving the Grutter holding intact.

If the Court pursues the latter route, you can bet you'll see a concurrence saying Grutter should be gotten rid of whole-sale.

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So just keep on with the disparities born of 500 years of slavery and colonization? AA is the only way to rectify a long long period of maltreatment.

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  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago "AA is the only way to rectify...

  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago "AA is the only way to rectify...

"AA is the only way to rectify a long long period of maltreatment."

So how do you explain the success of Texas' merit-based, race-neutral program linked in the article? The whole point is that AA is NOT the only way to rectify disparities in education and this has been PROVEN by program such as the one in Texas.

Moreover, violating one right to make amends from prior violations of another is not the solution our constitutional system is supposed to allow.

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  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago And in regard to your constitutiona...

  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago Re: Lawrence and SCOTUS cases conce...

  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago Absolutely but you're using th...

And in regard to your constitutional comment, I'll respect that when all the other times the constitution got set aside to allow for the genocide of my people get reviewed. This country has used the constitution to get what it wants when it wants from minorities so don't use that as an excuse to continue the same. See Worcester V Georgia, Cherokee Nation V Georgia, Johnson V McIntosh, just to name a few.

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Re: Lawrence and SCOTUS cases concerning Native Americans

Does a past injustice mean that the Court is never just? Does a series of incorrect decisions in an unrelated area of law dictate that the Supreme Court can never rule correctly under the Constitution? Of course not.

The Supreme Court has upheld forced sterilization (Buck v. Bell) and the interment of Japanese Americans (Korematsu v. US). Does that mean that Brown v. Board (racial integration of education) or Gideon v. Wainwright (right to an attorney) are all cases that set aside the constitution to achieve illegal ends?

Who determines when the country misuses the Constitution as a means to an end? You? Me? Should we not seek to ALWAYS apply it properly, regardless of past error?

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Absolutely but you're using the constitution as an excuse to not level the playing field for those who were a victim of the constitution's manipulation to begin with. You want a stacked deck to continue indefinitely by those harmed by the stacked deck. This is a difficult and delicate subject I know, but if you could step outside it and see it as though it was a different group of subjects you'd see that you cannot undo five hundred years of abuse overnight.

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You need to learn your facts. AA hurts Asian Americans (a minority that has had its fair share of mistreatment at the hands of the government), more than white males.

I agree that we need a level playing field. AA unlevels and leaves Caucasian and Asian Americans at a disadvantage.

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Its probably more of an issue of which facts you want to pay attention to. You can't call it a level playing field until the field is level. It hasn't been for 500 years.

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Responding to a violation of constitutional rights by encouraging that same violation be targeted against another group of citizens does not solve any problems, nor does it improve our system.

Past suffering does not justify present discrimination just as present programs do not excuse past wrongs.

Pushing the idea that because certain minorities have been oppressed in the past, we should not collectively discriminate against the majority solves nothing, violates the constitutional principals we are founded on, and, most importantly by implementing programs that do not discriminate between individuals on the basis of race.

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"AA is the only way to rectify a long long period of maltreatment."

So how do you explain the success of Texas' merit-based, race-neutral program linked in the article? The whole point is that AA is NOT the only way to rectify disparities in education and this has been PROVEN by program such as the one in Texas.

Moreover, violating one right to make amends from prior violations of another is not the solution our constitutional system is supposed to allow.

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  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago The same way the Bush administratio...

  • Jim Howes 3 months ago Jews have been persecuted for mille...

  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago I'd say the ten million dollar...

The same way the Bush administration showed how education improved with the shrub. Under closer examination it proved that education got worse, far worse under his administration. Numbers can be manipulated to say anything you want them to. And excuse me but Texas is the worst at fudging numbers. I know minority enrollment plummeted after the recent "race-neutral" program went into effect. Yeah it was race-neutral allright, as in neutralizing races.

So, do you think 500 years of slavery and colonization and all their destructive after effects have been undone? Just curious.

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Jews have been persecuted for millenia, yet today they are among the most well-educated and richest people in the world. The tired argument that blacks need "reparations" for slavery and racism so they can regain economic footing is a sham, and not even remotely supported by history.

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I'd say the ten million dollars a day we're propping Israel up with constitutes their own private form of Affirmative Action.

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In 1996, California passed Prop 209 ending the use of race as a factor in govt hiring and public education. Critics said admission and graduation rates for minorities would be drastically reduced. Just the opposite has happened.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/12/opinion/la-oe-lehrer-affirmativeaction-20100712 ; http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/prop209.pd
It's time to end the labeling and pigeon-holing that only maintains stereotypes and unintentionally holds people back.

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  • Gary W. Patterson, Jr. 3 months ago Well said!!!...

Well said!!!

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  • Douglas Goodman 3 months ago Thanks...

Thanks

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Let's hope this doesn't get overturned. Further it would be nice if Justice Thomas had the same scruples as Kagan. He will be hearing and ruling on cases involving Monsanto, where he once worked as counsel, and also in cases concerning people and issues his wife lobbied for.

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  • Mark Kogan 3 months ago Unfortunately, barring congressiona...

Unfortunately, barring congressional action on judicial ethics, this is unlikely to happen. See an earlier piece of mine on Justice Thomas's ethics problems here: http://www.policymic.com/articles/861/justice-fails-to-disclose-income-for-20-years

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  • Lawrence Sampson 3 months ago Nice piece. What a shame. I think t...

Nice piece. What a shame. I think this court has all the makings of a series of distastrous decisions we will be dealing with for a long time. Here's hoping Obama wins and appoints a coupla more.

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